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Old December 25th, 2017, 09:59 PM   #11
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Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism, hence the majority of first disciples and apostles were Jewish.
Zoroastronism influenced heretical strains of Christianity such as the Cathar movement in Provence.
Hellenism was not all that tolerant. Read the Maccabees and see how the Syrian branch provoked rebellion in setting up Roman gods in Jewish temples, leading to the Hasmonean Rebellion.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 11:40 AM   #12

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Originally Posted by pugsville View Post
The Catholic Church of the Middle Ages deeply emphasised hierarchy, and the catholic church today still does. Christianity changed from it's early roots, to a state religion heavily invested in the power of the state and it's own hierarchy by the time of the middle ages. After it' initial period up to Constantine it's spread might have been based on appeal and comfort, after that it's alliance with the state was a major factor, Kings backed the church because the Church was backing Kings with a system of belief that favoured Kings.

Christianity evolved and continues to do so.
There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly states this. Catholicism is just one denomination of many.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 08:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Wouldn't the origin of Christianity be Judaism?

Jesus and the Twelve Apostles and Saul/Paul were all Jews.

So, yes and no.
Saul was a Herodian and an Edomite or Nabatean so was not a Jew at all. The standard for being a Jew was still the Torah's standard -one had to be a literal descendant of Abraham and Isaac. Neither Saul nor Herod the Great were Jews. They were exactly like modern trannies who think because they want to be women that makes them women. No Jew was buying their delusion or lie no matter how often they repeated it.

Saul himself confirmed he was an Herodian when he stated that he was he fled from an agent of king Aretas in a basket. This Aretas (Aretas IV Philopatris) was the father of queen Phasaelis whom was the wife of Herod Antipas whom he dumped to marry Heriodias. John the Baptist protested this too and inspired the famous dance of Salome (Herodias' daughter) that cost John his head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Standard, 2 Corintians:11:32-33
1:32In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king guarded the city of the Damascenes in order to take me: 11:33and through a window was I let down in a basket by the wall, and escaped his hands.
Now compare Saul's testimony with Luke who wrote the gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Standard, Acts of the Apostles 9:22-25
9:22But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews that dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is the Christ. 9:23And when many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel together to kill him: 9:24but their plot became known to Saul. And they watched the gates also day and night that they might kill him: 9:25but his disciples took him by night, and let him down through the wall, lowering him in a basket.
This sort of redacting was normal to the gospel writers, none of whom was an apostle or had been to Judea. Mark is the first one written and the other two synoptics Luke and Matthew were rewrite of it correcting it's mistakes and making new ones of their own. John and Revelations were rewrites of lost works of Cerinthus an Ebionite (he was at least a Jewish Christian though not an apostle).

Saul was forbidden to preach by James the Just whom was the real apostolic successor of Jesus. Saul was no more an apostle than he was a Jew and was in constant conflict with the real apostles insulting them again and again in his genuine writings. He also was a persecutor of them (as in Nazi vs Jews).

Saul inspired the Greek Christianity we know which progressively game to resemble a Greek mystery religion. It was in conflict with the real apostles and Jewish Christians (Nazoreanz/Ebionites) whom continued to exist certainly until the 9th century and likely in the 10th century too. The Christianity we know had little inspiration from either Judaism or Jesus.
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Old December 28th, 2017, 07:35 AM   #14

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Originally Posted by Disciple of Sophia View Post
Saul was a Herodian and an Edomite or Nabatean so was not a Jew at all. The standard for being a Jew was still the Torah's standard -one had to be a literal descendant of Abraham and Isaac. Neither Saul nor Herod the Great were Jews. They were exactly like modern trannies who think because they want to be women that makes them women. No Jew was buying their delusion or lie no matter how often they repeated it.

Saul himself confirmed he was an Herodian when he stated that he was he fled from an agent of king Aretas in a basket. This Aretas (Aretas IV Philopatris) was the father of queen Phasaelis whom was the wife of Herod Antipas whom he dumped to marry Heriodias. John the Baptist protested this too and inspired the famous dance of Salome (Herodias' daughter) that cost John his head.



Now compare Saul's testimony with Luke who wrote the gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles.



This sort of redacting was normal to the gospel writers, none of whom was an apostle or had been to Judea. Mark is the first one written and the other two synoptics Luke and Matthew were rewrite of it correcting it's mistakes and making new ones of their own. John and Revelations were rewrites of lost works of Cerinthus an Ebionite (he was at least a Jewish Christian though not an apostle).

Saul was forbidden to preach by James the Just whom was the real apostolic successor of Jesus. Saul was no more an apostle than he was a Jew and was in constant conflict with the real apostles insulting them again and again in his genuine writings. He also was a persecutor of them (as in Nazi vs Jews).

Saul inspired the Greek Christianity we know which progressively game to resemble a Greek mystery religion. It was in conflict with the real apostles and Jewish Christians (Nazoreanz/Ebionites) whom continued to exist certainly until the 9th century and likely in the 10th century too. The Christianity we know had little inspiration from either Judaism or Jesus.
I will continue to think most or all of this is baloney unless you can cite some reputable source(s).

Last edited by David Vagamundo; December 28th, 2017 at 07:37 AM.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 04:26 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by David Vagamundo View Post
I will continue to think most or all of this is baloney unless you can cite some reputable source(s).
My keyboard is shot, so am not going to reply until after Tuesday when my new one is suppose to arrive. I need to save a bunch of files and bookmarks as I'm switching operating systems too.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 05:42 AM   #16

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Andrew, Simon Peter, James Zebedee, John Zebedee, Philip, Nathaniel, Matthew Levi,Thomas Didymus James and Judas Alpheus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot and Jesus himself were Jews, weren't they?

Judaism is the origin of Christianity.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 06:48 AM   #17

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Originally Posted by Disciple of Sophia View Post
My keyboard is shot, so am not going to reply until after Tuesday when my new one is suppose to arrive. I need to save a bunch of files and bookmarks as I'm switching operating systems too.
OK. Good luck. Look forward to seeing your sources.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by notgivenaway View Post
There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly states this. Catholicism is just one denomination of many.
That would be impossible because Catholicism post-dates the individual books of the bible.

But that having been said, there was no 'bible' before the roman catholic church decided what it would be made up of.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 07:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Andrew, Simon Peter, James Zebedee, John Zebedee, Philip, Nathaniel, Matthew Levi,Thomas Didymus James and Judas Alpheus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot and Jesus himself were Jews, weren't they?

Judaism is the origin of Christianity.
I think the question was more referring to the religion of Christianity, like Jesus being the son of god, holy trinity, the new testament stories. Clearly Christianity emerged due to almost exclusively Jewish actors in Judah and was an expansion of the Jewish religion, but were there religions which the story and later dogma borrowed from? According to Christians Jesus is the son of the Jewish god Yahweh and later on theologans added in the holy trinity,but basically where were the elements of this concept received from? Judaism was a Monotheistic religion for quite some time prior to that era and aside from the concept of the Messiah from the Babylonian captivity, the Christian religion really doesn't tie in with any of the old testament theology and is almost entirely a new concept for Judaism(thinking early AD period).
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Old December 29th, 2017, 08:48 PM   #20

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I wholeheartedly agree with Pendennis' part of the post in stating that it's wrong to see Christianity as a product of Judaism.
Hellenistic influences are more than apparent in Christianity, and especially in its Eastern Orthodox form (though this does not apply to the Oriental churches) practiced in the Greek east and later Slavic lands.

Christianity has very early separated from traditional Judaism, to the point that the most important figures of Christianity, like St. Paul, believed that one could not be both Judaic and Christian.

It's also often forgotten that in during the first centuries of Christianity, existed a small groups of Jews who continued to practice their religion but accepted Christ's teaching.
These Judeo-Christians were rejected by both the early Christian community, and orthodox Jews themselves.
They may have continued to exist in the Middle East in the next centuries, but faded into obscurity.

More related to the OP, I often like to emphasize that Christianity did not preach a worldly revolution, but it initiated a spiritual revolution. It changed and modified many of the notions that Classical civilization adhered to.
While Christianity rejected and tried to stamp out many aspects of Classical civilization, it nonetheless absorbed many others.

The originality of Christianity consisted of the idea that one can find salvation in a personal relationship with God, not merely by living a moral life, but through a profound inner transformation.
It did not promise any reward in this life, but rather asked of the individual to make sacrifices on this earth to achieve a better life in heaven.

Traditional Polytheistic religions of the Classical world were rooted in ritualistic worship (yes, monotheistic Judaism was also centered on worship, but clearly the two different greatly), and there were many cults that were reserved for a people of specific social class and background.
Christianity, in comparison, was not exclusive, and many of the early Christians came from different classes.

Christian God offered salvation, pagan Gods were capricious and fickle and cared little for humans outside of their own designs.
Pagan view of the afterlife was vague and fatalistic, Christianity promised an eternity of bliss.

Later on, Christianity did indeed develop some very original theological ideas, which had never been accepted in other monotheistic religions, and even among other Christian denominations.
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