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Old December 30th, 2017, 12:27 PM   #31
Joined: Sep 2013
From: Ulster
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Being born again means being baptized.
Is there not a part in the Bible which talks of casting off the old man and becoming 'born again'. I'm inclined to agree that baptism is the outward sign of a new beginning. Though some have said to me that it is the water at birth.

I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
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Old December 30th, 2017, 09:59 PM   #32
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1)Well regardless of the importance of Jesus's mission to Christians, I'm talking about the importance of the religious aspects of Christianity, basically the concept Jesus being a god and how all that works.

2)Jesus does not have to be real for their to be Christianity, most religions didn't require a real person for their deities. That being said I do think he was a real person but that's not what we're discussing here, nor what's generally debated about Jesus. Honestly getting off topic but I find the Paul "revelation" to be more unbelievable than Jesus's resurrection(it is possible in limited capacity's for people to come back to life after all, shortly after death). Christianity being so dependent on Paul, for it's earlier documentation, who was not a disciple who would have seen the events of the gospel but a Roman who saw a "vision" is part of what makes me think the story of Jesus that became Christianity had a bit of outside influence from at least the Romans. Again, I'm not arguing about whether Christianity is true or not, I'd assume to think a religion "originated" from somewhere other than Judaism that's be a requirement, I'm arguing about whether the religion took it's main religious concepts and premises largely from other places.

3)The OT earlier on(after Genesis)is a Jewish origin story. Origin story's typically had deities in them in this age, this part isn't really historically valid based on what we know. The later part while certainly biased towards the Jews, is largely a historical account. Back then, people didn't view history the same way as they did then, and I'd think history and religion would be quite intertwined cause religion is an origin story and that would to them be the beginning of history.

4)Well I'm not talking about "teachings". In terms of teachings, Christianity seems to have borrowed a great deal from Zoroastrianism, an earlier moral dualist religion. I'm talking about similar stories about deity's. Romulus and Remus were both either cases of "virgin births"/ their father was an actual deity in this case, Mars. Romulus was therefore half god/half human like Jesus. Romulus also had the King try to kill him as a baby out of fear .Romulus also founded the kingdom of Rome, while Jesus opened up a kingdom in the sky. Most importantly this would be a story that Romans would be aware of and saw as their own origin story and would be something similar to what they'd want to put in their own one. Even if we erase my idea's about outside interference, Christians were mostly converted Pagan Romans by the time of Niceaea. Furthermore seeing as the storys of Christmas and the birth of Jesus are the ones least likely to be based on actual events(unlike the death, etc) this would be story that would need to be made up even by Christians who believed in the overall concept of Jesus being a messiah who died and came back to open the gates of heaven. What better place for Romans to look than the founder of their own city?

5)Well seeing as the scholarly consensus is that 1-2 events in the book are true, the rest likely came from somewhere else. There's all sorts of theories given the context of the day and while all of them are fringe, we're operating largely in unchartered waters there.
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