Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 3rd, 2018, 05:21 AM   #11

gustavolapizza's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: Italy
Posts: 1,699

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
I'd like to have a discussion about a division I've discovered between different strands of patriotism.

I propose that Patriotism as a phenomenon is not monolithic, but can be divided into "concrete patriotism" and "abstract patriotism".

The former is a love for, and willingness to defend one's homeland. When I say homeland in this context, I am talking about the actual soil and hearth upon which one lives and upon which one depends for survival.

Abstract patriotism on the other hand is attachment to, and willingness to fight for, a set of abstract labels, judgements, and perceived characteristics shared by a defined group (such as a religious or national group).

I contend that the former variety of patriotism is as old as sedentary civilization, while the latter was slower to develop, and probably emerged around the time of the first empires, when a justification was suddenly needed regarding why someone should care when the far side of the Empire was being threatened.
i've found a different kind of difference in patriotic approach. I've seen there are two kinds of patriots:
- those who think that, for the good of the country, you have to point the finger toward the country flaws, in order to fix them and make it a better country.
- those who think that, for the good of the country, you have to pretend everything in your country is good and pretend flaws aren't there or minimize them.

this is more or less the debate that you can find in every country, think for example at american exceptionalism doctrine. in italy for example we have a very famous writer who has written a book about the Camorra, half the country think he is a hero, cause he had the courage to risk his life and speak about a problem no one really wants to tackle. The other half think he is a villain, cause "once again he made us famous around the world for our gangsters"

i'm personally leaning toward the first approach cause you can't fix a problem if you don't address it first, but i'm also aware that it can become toxic if you push it too far when you start thinking that bad things can only happen in your country so one should always be aware of both sides of the coin, keeping in mind the many good things of his country and the fact that foreign nations have their problems too.

Last edited by gustavolapizza; January 3rd, 2018 at 05:29 AM.
gustavolapizza is offline  
Remove Ads
Old January 3rd, 2018, 07:23 AM   #12

David Vagamundo's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Atlanta, Georgia USA
Posts: 3,491

Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavolapizza View Post
i've found a different kind of difference in patriotic approach. I've seen there are two kinds of patriots:
- those who think that, for the good of the country, you have to point the finger toward the country flaws, in order to fix them and make it a better country.
- those who think that, for the good of the country, you have to pretend everything in your country is good and pretend flaws aren't there or minimize them.

.
Your dichotomy as stated is skewed toward the first choice, is unrealistic and omits a third alternative

And, based on the work of someone who purports to be following alternative, namely Zinn's People's History of the US, is to be objectionable. Zinn does nothing but point out flaws.

OTOH, do you realistically know of anyone who pretends everything in his or her country is good? Everyone I know here in the US has a long list of things he or she believes is wrong with the US. The lists vary from person to person, but no one thinks the US is perfect the way it is, and I'd bet that, unless you live in a dictatorship exercising thought control, no one in your country thinks your country is perfect.

The third alternative would be to acknowledge the flaws and work to correct them but in general support your country, particularly in foreign affairs.
David Vagamundo is online now  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 09:41 AM   #13

dreuxeng's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2015
From: England
Posts: 1,221

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leesajohnson View Post
You can construe any situation in a number of ways. In particular, you can frame most situations in either an abstract, long-term sort of way or in a more concrete, immediate way.
As Gerald Kaufman once said on TV, when told by a Uruguayan rabbi's wife with seven children, that he couldn't possibly equate the two (things in question): he replied, 'but i can'. You can of course claim the centre ground and change the reference of the debate. Is it not possible for example to divide patriotism into two key sub-divisions: constitutional (or abstract) patriotism, and identity (or instinct) patriotism.

Whilst both these two appear very similar and are two parts of a whole on many occasions, they might not be, such as with respect to the EU: 'the actual institutional features of European politics make it improbable that Europeans will develop allegiances to the European Union grounded in shared constitutional ideals. Without meaningful electoral politics at the heart of the European political process, the citizenry's attitude toward European institutions will continue to oscillate between disinterest, fickle support, and resentment.'
dreuxeng is offline  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:49 PM   #14
Lecturer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
From: Indiana, USA
Posts: 365

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreuxeng View Post
You might have added communism (Soviet Union next to China), and imperial communism.
And I might have added Capitalism, Socialism, and Shamanism.

But I didn't because they weren't related to the question.
Apicius is offline  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:53 PM   #15
Lecturer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
From: Indiana, USA
Posts: 365

Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavolapizza View Post
i've found a different kind of difference in patriotic approach. I've seen there are two kinds of patriots:
- those who think that, for the good of the country, you have to point the finger toward the country flaws, in order to fix them and make it a better country.
- those who think that, for the good of the country, you have to pretend everything in your country is good and pretend flaws aren't there or minimize them.
No one who professes to be a patriot will ever describe themselves in those terms.
Apicius is offline  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 07:31 PM   #16
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: Kirkcaldy, Scotland
Posts: 3,144

'PATRIOTISM, SIR, IS THE LAST REFUGE OF THE SCOUNDREL'''' Doctor Samuel Johnson, one of 18th century England and Britain's greatest thinkers.
And how true, Hitler, Horatio Bottomley, Mussolini Richard Nixon ...-just few of history's rogues who wrapped themselves in their country's flags ,metaphorically speaking and claimed to be super-patriots
Even that Commie super rogue and scoundrel Joe Stalin, was smart enough to rally Soviet citizens -both Communist and non- Communist- to fight the 1941-45 war by caling it ;THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR...'which is how it was referred to in Soviet history books post- 1945.
I recall a former Soviet officer who had fought with the Red Army between 1941-45 being interviewed by the 1960's weekly 'Purnell's History of the Second World War' and who had defected to the west post-war being asked if he regretted fighting for the USSR during the war and he replied 'Of course I don;t regret it -I was fighting for my Russian motherland-not Stalin or Communism...' against Nazism..'
Similarly, ask any former Soviet Union citizen today who is aged -as I am -in their mid '70's- about W.W. 2 and they will not say 'the Second World War ' or WORLD WAR TWO'' but the 'Great Patriotic War''
Consequently any suggestion that Communism and patriotism are mutually exclusive is bulls***t as Stalin so amply demonstrated by dubbing the 1941-45 conflict the 'Great Patriotic War'
One of the biggest delusions among many Americans is that their parties have an exclusive/sole grip on patriotism..
Indeed, American politicians like Nixon's chum Soiro T Agnew of alleged kickbacks infamy, are proof of the truth of Doctor Samuel Johnson's dictum that 'Patriotism Sir, is the last refuge of the scoundrel' is true in many cases in history .
Equally, if I was a senior tax fraud investigator for the American IRS I would be inclined to pay particular attention to those taxpayers who regularly flew the biggest 'Old Glory'' flags in their front lawns.
Again, you can HAVE dual patriotism. As a Scot I love Scotland more than the United Kingdom of which Scotland is a part.But I would still support the UK if it was imperiled by a an external enemy s it was in 1940 .I equally I am moved by the English anthem 'Land OF Hope and Glory', but I am equally moved by our Scottish national anthem-FLOWER OF SCOTLAND' which celebrates Scotland's greatest military victory over the Auld Enemy, England, in 1314 at Bannockburn.
The USA has dual patriotism too.
I am certain that denizens of Tennessee feel patriotic pride in the Volunteer state but are equally sincere when they stand , hand over heart to the strains of 'the' Star Spangled Banner '
Maybe even triple patriotism. When Elvis did his American trilogy number he sang 'Battle HYMN of the Republic & Dixie the old C.S.A. anthem.
But if you find yourself in the company of superpatriots and they are visiting your home ALWAYS count the dinner spoons after they have left.
Pendennis is offline  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 07:43 PM   #17

Belgarion's Avatar
Cynical Optimist
 
Joined: Jul 2011
From: Australia
Posts: 5,984

I would call the OPs 'concrete patriotism' a necessary survival tool rather than patriotism, while 'abstract patriotism' is the philosophical position that we know as patriotism.
Belgarion is offline  
Old January 4th, 2018, 04:54 AM   #18

dreuxeng's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2015
From: England
Posts: 1,221

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apicius View Post
And I might have added Capitalism, Socialism, and Shamanism.

But I didn't because they weren't related to the question.
Fascism and communism are both "state" things, shurely.
dreuxeng is offline  
Old January 4th, 2018, 06:40 AM   #19

gustavolapizza's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: Italy
Posts: 1,699

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apicius View Post
No one who professes to be a patriot will ever describe themselves in those terms.
a dictator consider himself the supreme patriot: try to tell something isn't working under a dictator and see how you end up.

there are people who call themselves christians and professes to bomb the hell out of muslim countries until not a single muslim is still alive or that being super-rich is the sign god loves you.
there are other people who call themselves christians and professes to love everyone no matter what and that god wants you to be poor and unattached to earthly treasures.

basically you can call yourself whatever you want and profess whatever else you want, words can't defend themselves and their meaning always shift according to time and circumstances. You just have to convince enough people of that, or be able to force that on people and you'll see people will stop immediately rising questions.

Last edited by gustavolapizza; January 4th, 2018 at 06:47 AM.
gustavolapizza is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

Tags
abstract, concrete, patriotism



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Evolution of Celtic Abstract/Iconic Art cavaros Ancient History 0 December 17th, 2014 10:01 AM
Abstract art - your opinion? antonina Art and Cultural History 77 October 24th, 2014 10:06 PM
Flag: Making the Abstract Concrete coberst Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 4 June 13th, 2010 04:37 AM
Is time an abstract idea? coberst Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 0 August 10th, 2009 01:48 AM
Why is ‘abstract idea’ like Wikipedia? coberst Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 0 July 7th, 2009 10:32 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.