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Old June 1st, 2018, 02:42 AM   #71

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Henry the navigator... king of Portugal.
I basically agree with your post. Just a detail, Infante D. Henrique (Henry), nicknamed the Navigator (he didn’t sail much), was not king of Portugal, he was a prince, duke of Viseu, son of the king D. Joćo I, brother of king D. Duarte, and uncle (and tutor for some time) of the king D. Afonso V.

He had a powerful house but was not the only noble to send ships to explore lands. At the same time his brothers, the king D. Duarte and the prince D. Pedro, duke of Coimbra, did the same. He raised more in popularity in this case than his brothers because D. Duarte was the king, and after his dead, there was a brief civil war that culminated in the battle of Alfarrobeira and D. Pedro, duke of Coimbra, was killed and his memory was much wiped out.
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Old June 3rd, 2018, 11:34 AM   #72
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...Indeed, let us not forget also that in North America, Giovanni Caboto, at the service of the English, and the Portuguese Corte-Real were also exploring it, giving a wider idea of the new continent (the French arrived a bit later, in 1528)...
Perhaps I should point out that North American and South America are only connected by a narrow istmass, and that only for the last eight million or so years. They were really two separate landmasses for many millions of years before that, and so should be considered basically two continents, not one.

And what shouldn't be forgotten is that Columbus (died 1506) and Amerigo Vespucci (died 1512) might never have known that Labrador was connected to Central and South America. Each new expedition added tens or hundreds of miles to the maps of the eastern shores of North or South America.

I think that by 1512 it might have been easy to imagine a continent that was farthest east at Brazil and had a coast going roughly to the northwest from there an unknown distance, with many large and small islands off its coast, and that Labrador was a large island or part of another continent far to the north.

As far as I remember, by 1512 the main connection between the two sets of discoveries was that the southern discovers extended farther east and west r than the northern discovers, which thus were at roughly the same longitude as the southern discoveries, and it was as yet uncertain if the two sets of discoveries were connected physically by land. So neither Columbus or Vespucci could have yet known that South America was connected to the lands discovered in the north.

Last edited by MAGolding; June 3rd, 2018 at 11:37 AM.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 06:44 AM   #73

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Perhaps I should point out that North American and South America are only connected by a narrow istmass, and that only for the last eight million or so years. They were really two separate landmasses for many millions of years before that, and so should be considered basically two continents, not one.

And what shouldn't be forgotten is that Columbus (died 1506) and Amerigo Vespucci (died 1512) might never have known that Labrador was connected to Central and South America. Each new expedition added tens or hundreds of miles to the maps of the eastern shores of North or South America.

I think that by 1512 it might have been easy to imagine a continent that was farthest east at Brazil and had a coast going roughly to the northwest from there an unknown distance, with many large and small islands off its coast, and that Labrador was a large island or part of another continent far to the north.

As far as I remember, by 1512 the main connection between the two sets of discoveries was that the southern discovers extended farther east and west r than the northern discovers, which thus were at roughly the same longitude as the southern discoveries, and it was as yet uncertain if the two sets of discoveries were connected physically by land. So neither Columbus or Vespucci could have yet known that South America was connected to the lands discovered in the north.
I have been out, and I miss this post. Sorry.

Columbus or Vespucci most probably not, but the Map from Waldseemüller from 1507 begins to give an approximate idea of the American continent in the east part, and gives the continent its name for the first time. Columbus explored the Panama region in one of his fourth voyage (1502), so quite soon there was the idea that the North and South land masses were or at least could be connected. Balboa sees the Pacific in 1513. Fernćo Magalhćes, in 1519 already goes South to find a path to reach the spices.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 10:55 AM   #74

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Hello!

As stated, i wonder what you think about what made Colombus sail west. Yuval Noah Harari goes in depth about it in his book Sapiens, which i of course read. Namely the chapter on the scientific revolution. Harari tells of something pretty interesting, the discovery of ignorance, and how the maps after this discovery showed vast empty spaces, contrary to the earlier maps filled with dragons and ****.

what do you guys think made Colombus set sail?


https://erenow.com/common/sapiensbriefhistory/

Sorry to be late into the thread.

Apart of Columbus rationalizing the idea of going West by reducing the size of the world (wrongly), there's a simple explanation.

The idea of traveling west to reach the east existed well into the Middle Ages, so that Roger Bacon (13th century) stated that reaching India was possible sailing west. The Vivaldi Brothers, from Genoa, also departed west with that idea in 1294. Columbus probably just inherited this idea existing in his social enviroment
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Old June 14th, 2018, 11:12 AM   #75
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Sorry to be late into the thread.

Apart of Columbus rationalizing the idea of going West by reducing the size of the world (wrongly), there's a simple explanation.

The idea of traveling west to reach the east existed well into the Middle Ages, so that Roger Bacon (13th century) stated that reaching India was possible sailing west. The Vivaldi Brothers, from Genoa, also departed west with that idea in 1294. Columbus probably just inherited this idea existing in his social enviroment
When you know the world is a sphere, then it is a logical conclusion you could get to Asia by sailing west. That no one tried it before was because no one knew how big the ocean and how long you would have to sail west, and based on the estimates of the size of the earth, and assumptions of the size of Asia, it did not look promising. Marco Polo's travels indicated that Asia was much bigger than it actual is, so it means you would have less distance to travel west on the ocean to reach it. The ancient Greeks and Romans may have had a more accurate estimate for Asia's size, or not have any idea of Asia's size, in either case it would have discouraged them from the idea of sailing west to reach Asia.

In Columbus' case, due to over estimates of Asia's size thanks to Marco Polo, and Columbus own underestimate of the size of the earth, sailing west to reach Asia looked more feasible.

(As to why Marco Polo's travel led to an overestimate of the size of Asia, I assume it was based on how it took Marco Polo to reach China, and based on average walking speed, you can come up with an estimate of the distance. I guess in Polo's case, it took far longet than you would estimate just walking there, probably because his path wasn't very straight.)
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Old June 14th, 2018, 11:38 AM   #76

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Frank 81

The idea of traveling west to reach the east existed well into the Middle Ages, so that Roger Bacon (13th century) stated that reaching India was possible sailing west. The Vivaldi Brothers, from Genoa, also departed west with that idea in 1294. Columbus probably just inherited this idea existing in his social enviroment

________________________


Where is the history of the spice trade.
____________
Second is the story of the first Europeans to make the spice trade were the Portuguese. Or am I wrong?
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Old June 14th, 2018, 11:55 PM   #77

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Frank 81

The idea of traveling west to reach the east existed well into the Middle Ages, so that Roger Bacon (13th century) stated that reaching India was possible sailing west. The Vivaldi Brothers, from Genoa, also departed west with that idea in 1294. Columbus probably just inherited this idea existing in his social enviroment
Heresy!!!
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