Cicero

Wonderful I must see it again. I saw it only when it first came out.

You may well be right. Gas is gas between enemies!

Lucius

Their? You mean "they're."

See, if you make a fool out of yourself while you're insulting an entire nation, well, you see how it looks. People will think you're the one who's full of ****.

Lucius

I like that line toward the end where the guy tells Steyn, "Just go and tell her about how you're really the big hero."

I'm still waiting to work that one into a conversation somehow.

Chookie

Edison wasn't the first to demonstrate electric lighting - James Bowman Lindsay did it in 1835.

http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/jbl/

Then promptly forgot about it.......

mlipo

Jared Diamond (IIRC) spoke of the Australians having the bow available but not using it-he also brought up how the qwerty keyboard is without a doubt NOT the best way of arranging letters. Typewriter companies had too much invested in the way things were, so no changes were made. Now we are stuck with it.

leakbrewergator

Guns were not done away with in Japan b/c they went against the "Samurai spirit." This is a fallacy that has achieved widespread recognition in the West along with the concept of Bushido.

Guns were outlawed along with all other weapons among non-Bushi by Toyotomi Hideyoshi in 1592 to prevent any armed uprisings. There were still guns in Japan after this, just not widespread. The reason why the gun had nearly disappeared only a century later was simply because there was no need for them. No war = no need for guns.

Prior to the "Sword Hunt", as it is now referred to, guns were readily available and even manufactured (somehwat) in Japan.

Samurai had no problems using firearms during the Boshin War.

mlipo

Couldn't a claim be made that the Islamic world ignored many technological advances (those not having to do with war) coming from Europe? At least, that's what I think Bernard Lewis has to say.

Cicero

I know almost nothing about Japanese histroy prior to the 20th century and know that is one of your areas of interest Leak, so am trying to learn here. My intrest in this thread has to do with a lecture series on the history of science and the events in Japan were given as an example where advanced technology was adopted then abandoned by the Japanese in a relatively short time and the reasoning for doing so as I stated in the OP.

What you said above doesn't seem to me inconsitent with what I learned. Guns were introduced, rapidly adopted, manufactured and used extensively for a short time, upsetting the status quo of power in Japan. The highly trained swordsman could be defeated by masses of peasants armed with this new technology, a concept abhorent to the ruling elite. When they, the ruling elite prevailed, they outlawed guns, or at least severely restircted their distribution, so that eventually their useage evaporated, the status quo ante firearms being restored. Swords, part of the culture of the ruling elite persisted and went unchallenged by absent guns. The no war, no guns philosophy not applying swords.

I would be curious in your thoughts in this regard.

Cicero

From my reading of Lewis' What Went Wrong, I think that you are correct here, thought the details are foggy as I read the book quite a while ago.

leakbrewergator

Hideyoshi's Sword Hunt did include swords along with guns. It basically called for anything not necessary for farming that could be used as a weapon to be handed over to his agents. This involved very little firearms b/c very few farmers had them. However, firearms were still allowed among the bushi, especially those loyal to the Toyotomi. This is evident in the amount of firearms used in the battles proceeding the Sword Hunt.

During this period, highly trained swordsmen would not have to be worried about being defeated by a mass peasant army armed with guns b/c this was an impossible scenario. Peasants barely had any access to guns even at the height of their popularity. In fact, it was the high-ranking bushi that had the majority of firearms.

Peasant rebellions throughout Japan's history, even when guns were regularly used often included only farming utensils, rocks. sticks, and a few swords.

My main argument with your OP was the fact that guns were not outlawed b/c they went against the "samurai spirit." Samurai used guns. They used them often. They were restricted among Hideyoshi's enemies for obvious reasons and eventually their use was no longer needed. At least for a couple of centuries.

I'm curious. Did the lecturer give any more examples? I like some of the ones already mentioned here.