Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 5th, 2010, 08:36 AM   #41
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,933
Re: History and Historians


It's easy to verify that there is certainly some meat & potatoes (and even some good food) in wiki; IMHO denying such evident fact would be a blatant fallacy of authority.

And Jell-O is certainly widespread and hardly limited to any particular tertiary source...

Last but not least, last time I checked even Jell-O reported more nutrients than thin air...
sylla1 is offline  
Remove Ads
Old August 5th, 2010, 08:39 AM   #42

Comet's Avatar
Jedi Master
 
Joined: Aug 2006
From: IA
Posts: 8,370
Blog Entries: 1
Re: History and Historians


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlisle Blues View Post
While I would like to, I cannot hold those that I engage with in Historum to the same standards I would expect from one of my students. It is in that spirit that I try to glean the meaning of what is posted first and if, necessary ask for references. I may get a wiki reference that is fine with me if that backs up what person is saying in addition to a cross reference.

Depending on the topic I am here for good conversation or if it is an advanced historical debate I most definitely want specific solid references not wiki.
But we can expect others to demonstrate the empathy to allow such discussions to take place, regardless of what standards are used. That, to me, is the key to having a constructive discussion...regardless of one is an amateur or a professional.

Last edited by Comet; August 5th, 2010 at 02:25 PM.
Comet is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 08:52 AM   #43
Member Chose To Move On
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,609
Re: History and Historians


Quote:
Originally Posted by Comet View Post
But we can expect others to demonstrate the empathy to allow such discussions to take place, regardless of what standards are used. That, to me, is the key to having a constructive discussion...irregardless of one is an amateur or a professional.
Acceptance is the key for me Comet. There are some here that will call another poster "stupid" because they hold a different view. Hell, I have been called that..most call me Professor. Dialog is the very essence of intellectual growth. So I read once, then twice and do my own research as to what an individual stating. If I find it worthy I will defend their position and at times incorporate it into my own thesis.
Carlisle Blues is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 09:01 AM   #44

Comet's Avatar
Jedi Master
 
Joined: Aug 2006
From: IA
Posts: 8,370
Blog Entries: 1
Re: History and Historians


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlisle Blues View Post
Acceptance is the key for me Comet. There are some here that will call another poster "stupid" because they hold a different view. Hell, I have been called that..most call me Professor. Dialog is the very essence of intellectual growth. So I read once, then twice and do my own research as to what an individual stating. If I find it worthy I will defend their position and at times incorporate it into my own thesis.
A great approach in my opinion Carlisle...and an approach that will serve you well
Comet is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 09:31 AM   #45

avon's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 14,230
Blog Entries: 2
Re: History and Historians


Quote:
Originally Posted by avon View Post
The problem is that historians cannot present ALL facts but must chose what is important, less so or simply not important. This is where bias tend to come into play. As historians, we have to shift through lots and lots of crap to get to the good stuff.
I've just spent the last 25 minutes looking for something written by Marc Bloch. He once wrote:
'[The historian] never perceives more than a tiny patch of the vast tapestry of events. . . . In this respect, the student of the present is scarcely any better off than the historian of the past.'
Marc Bloch, The Historianís Craft, trans. Peter Putnam (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1992, first published in 1953), p. 42.
avon is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 09:40 AM   #46

diddyriddick's Avatar
Forum Curmudgeon
 
Joined: May 2009
From: A tiny hamlet in the Carolina Sandhills
Posts: 14,692
Re: History and Historians


Interesting thread, BlackDog. Thanks for bringing it up.
diddyriddick is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 10:22 AM   #47

Vixen's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 187
Re: History and Historians


We had a class as undergrads called Historical Methods that covered stuff like this.

Questions like the difference between historical truth and historical fact?

On the objectivity issue I'm sure every historian tries for that but humans are never objective. People are drawn to the subjects/people/eras that fascinate and captivate them, subjects we can get passionate about. Thats how we end up with being able to chart a pattern of historiography i.e. social history/socialist opinions/marxism tend to coincide in the 20th century with the 1970s. Also thats how we end up getting apologists for certain things in history.
Vixen is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 10:31 AM   #48

Black Dog's Avatar
Idiot of the year 2013
 
Joined: Mar 2008
From: Damned England
Posts: 9,948
Blog Entries: 2
Re: History and Historians


History is as liable to trends as anything else: the thing is to spot the "bias" the trend has lent to the Historian's work. Feminism, for example, has led to the great anachronism of people from the distant past being labelled "feminists" and anyone who is their opponent, "patriarchal misogynists". Massive oversimplification, too.

Yes, some bias is inevitable with the best will in the world: however, a historian should be aware of that bias and factor it in when reaching his/her own conclusions: the bias should not make the historian ignore the entire body of work. Much can be learned even from reading stuff which is plainly wrong. Nazi revisionism is an example. At least, one can learn what the arguments of those people are, and therefore how to counter them.

Avon: I agree, some kind of selection process is inevitable and any writing, be it a post or a book, must needs make decisions about what to include or what lies outside the scope of that book/post whatever. But I've read many books with unforgivable omissions, simply because it suited the author's main thrust of argument. Argh!
Black Dog is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 11:29 AM   #49
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,933
Re: History and Historians


Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
History is as liable to trends as anything else: the thing is to spot the "bias" the trend has lent to the Historian's work.
History is in fact inherently more liable to such biases, because its validation methods are generally more restricted than for "everything else"; e.g. experimentation is impossible.

In Dr House's immortal words, "everybody lies"; recording facts & writing narratives is a hard job, and one should always expect people to have some motivation for doing it. More than the truth, people naturally tend to preserve their truth.

As BD said, some degree of skepticism is always warranted, especially if the conclusions of the author may agree with us (due to our inherent cognitive biases).

The degree of inherent subjectivity is often underestimated; anyone can easily verify how difficult it may be sometimes to reconstruct the events, even if they happened earlier on this very day; on a literary level, Rashomon of Kurosawa is a classic example.
sylla1 is offline  
Old August 5th, 2010, 02:23 PM   #50
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: Ozarkistan
Posts: 11,340
Re: History and Historians


Just "regardless", not "irregardless".
corrocamino is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

Tags
historians



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question for the War and Military Historians here... Marius War and Military History 37 March 10th, 2014 11:23 AM
Hello historians sixtvs New Users 11 August 15th, 2009 07:06 AM
Greetings historians bakjewel New Users 6 March 1st, 2009 01:39 PM
history coursework and historians does344 European History 10 January 22nd, 2009 01:04 PM
Thinking as Historians Jubelu Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 53 July 16th, 2007 06:05 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.