Which was Greater: Islamic Golden Age or the Renaissance? - Historum

**Mohammed the Persian** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:23 PM

Recently a guy in a thread talked about this issue and I'm quoting his post here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fabre

It really bugs me when people talk about the Renaissance like it was the first shining light in the world since Greece/Rome. Whereas the Islamic empire had their Islamic Renaissance 900 years earlier, and had deeper more profound philosophy, achieved far greater in the fields of science and mathematics, and could claim the most libraries and university establishments. No other empire in history gave more royal patronage towards learning than the Fatimid Caliphate in North Africa; the Renaissance compared to them just looks silly. Unfortunately history see's the Islamic Renaissance in a slightly less prestigious position due to the warmongering and destructive Mongols.

Okay. So , when comparing the Islamic Golden Age, with all our great Persian, Arab, North African etc.. scientists and findings (like Ibn Sina.. Geber.. to name a few

) to the Renaissance, which was greater ?

And try to keep the racial sentiments out of this thread please

The Alani Dragon Rising · July 23rd, 2011, 01:27 PM

This one is really hard to call.

**clement** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:28 PM

It is really an odd question. The Islamic goldent age last for several centuries, the Renaissance for several decades. You should rather compare it with the "christian golden age" or "western golden age" (at least 1450 - 2000). But even like this, I feel that it doesn't really make sense.

Moreover the Renaissance itself was mostly a period of artistic brilliance. But the evolution of philosophy, the development of modern Europe was a longer process with started earlier and continued well after the Renaissance (for example, humanism started in italy in the 14th century, the scientific revolution occurred in the 17th century etc). Economically, Europe was stronger in the late middle ages than during the Renaissance. For it does not really make sense.

Moreover, it is a bit easy to simply blame the mongol for the end of the islamic golden age. In fact the muslim themselves (especially the turks) did much to end it. Firstly because of internal wars within the muslim world (the end of the Abbasid caliphate, the turkish invasions) and also because the muslim rulers became much more conservative after the 11th century and became wary of scientific development or philosophy. On the other hand, the Western world became much more open to innovation after the first "renaissance" (technically it was not the first one, but in fact it was the first significant renaissance), that of the 12th century. Just compare the two most influential thinkers of their time : Al Ghazali and St Thomas Aquinas. Whereas the former tried to discard muslim philosophers (who were "unbelievers" or at least bad muslims in his opinion), the latter used their work in order to create his own system and he was supported by the religious authorities.

**Kevinmeath** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:28 PM

I would say neither (i before c accept after c?) both are important events, to champion one over the other makes no sense.

The Alani Dragon Rising · July 23rd, 2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clement

It is really an odd question. The Islamic goldent age last for several centuries, the Renaissance for several decades. You should rather compare it with the "christian golden age" or "western golden age" (at least 1450 - 2000). But even like this, I feel that it doesn't really make sense.

Renaissance decades?

**Mohammed the Persian** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:30 PM

I put up a poll, that should help in counting the numbers

**Kevinmeath** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:32 PM

I vote neither!

**Mohammed the Persian** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevinmeath

I vote neither!

Shoot! I knew I forgot something

**clement** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Alani Dragon Rising

Renaissance decades?

Well broadly speaking, it is fairly consistent IMO to use the 1440s/ 1450s as the beginning of the Renaissance and 1600 as its end. This is short when compared to the IGO ( 700 - 1100/ 1260).

And I won't vote either. I do find the question weird, I can't make a choice, and I fear this poll may cause some tensions.

abvgd · July 23rd, 2011, 02:04 PM

Which Renaissance are we talking about? The 12th or the 14th century one?

According to Wikipedia, the Islamic Golden Age spans some 500 years, from c. 750 to c. 1258. That would roughly be equivalent to the period from the founding of medieval universities during 12th century Renaissance up to the founding of the Royal Society and the publishing of Newton's Principia Mathematica. That's the least favorable corresponding period in European development, the more one pushes the corresponding European period forward in time, the greater the discrepancy becomes in favor of Europe. If we start with the 14th century Renaissance (which is what one usually means when simply saying "the Renaissance"), then the period would stretch into the Industrial Revolution. Either way, it would be very hard to argue that the Islamic Golden Age can compare with any equivalent period in European development.

Comparing these categories directly is somewhat problematic also due to the fact that the Islamic Golden Age is more of a generic term whose purpose is simply to lump together all the noteworthy activities in the Islamic world into one period while the corresponding European terms such as the 12th/14th century Renaissances, the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment are all terms coined in order to distinguish and differentiate between various phases of European development.

As for this statement:

Quote:

Unfortunately history see's the Islamic Renaissance in a slightly less prestigious position due to the warmongering and destructive Mongols.

While the Mongols did sack Baghdad, they did also fund the creation of the Maragheh observatory which was a major event and is a major source of pride in what is called the Islamic Golden Age. So, I don't think that the Mongols can be quite blamed for putting an end to Islamic contributions.