Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 10th, 2012, 02:52 AM   #91

Tapio, the king of forest's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 304

With simple math you can count the date when Chinese production exceeds US production. I hope that then those two superpowers can live peacefully together and not wage war, allthough war would clearly solve which one is superior.
Tapio, the king of forest is offline  
Remove Ads
Old October 10th, 2012, 08:58 AM   #92
Citizen
 
Joined: May 2012
From: Canada
Posts: 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
It was the french destruction of the fujian fleet that triggered the qing declaration of war, not the other war around.

China had two other fleets besides the fujian fleet, it had the central fleet and the northern beiyang fleet, which was one of the best equipped with german built ships. li hongzhang refused to let the beiyang fleet participate in the war. China only lost naval superiority because the beiyang fleet did not join in. Neither did any northern armies, the entire war was fought by certain chinese provincial armies like the chu, huai, guangdong armies and black flag militia. most of the chinese military sat out.
Beiyang fleet was definitely a mighty modernized fleet, largest in asia if I recall, but it didn't fair well against the Japanese. I don't think it's out of the question to assume that the beiyang fleet wasn't used due to fear of being destroyed by the french, so it's quite in the realm of possibility that french could have emulated the results of Japan.


Quote:
France also wanted taiwan as well when it started its invasion. They were defeated there and contained into a corner, otherwise both taiwan and vietnam would be french colonies.
Rarely do nations get every demand they want from a war unless it is one where the whole country is occupied. France didn't even pay any indemnities, but the truth is that France won the war and they acquired tonkin, a fairly large piece of land. There is no doubt that China halted the french plans in taiwan but I don't think that it concludes that China won or was winning the war. If China had thought they were in a better situation they would have continued the war, but they found a joint french japan invasion/alliance to dangerous and opted for lenient offers to the french.
kinger256 is offline  
Old October 10th, 2012, 10:30 AM   #93
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Messy.

The Second Opium War ended in 1860. The Dowager abdicated in 1912. Is 52 years supposed to be a long time?

The relationship between the Opium Wars(and the attendant massive narcotic traffic/drug addiction) with the end of hereditary absolutism in China was that people had started to think seriously about the fact that their country had become a plaything of foreigners and they quite naturally blamed the government. After all, China had gotten bitch-slapped by the French.

The intelligentsia reckoned that it had something to do with France being a liberal democracy and decided that they wanted what the French(and British) had. Chinese people are smart. They knew that the reason France and Britain could sail around the world and arrange Chinese affairs to their liking was that France and Britain were liberal democracies and China was a throw-back to feudalism. They wanted what France and Britain had, if for no other reason, just so they could defend themselves.
Sorry for missing this kind answer so long ago

52 years (actually 73 years from the beginning of the first war) are two human generations plus (or three from the beginning of the 1st war), definitively a long time by any standard for any potential correlation between both phenomena.

IMHO the intelligentsia of China or any other place could only have felt nausated by the impressively noxious social effects of the deliberately abusive induction of chemical addiction in such an unparalleled scale, not to mention the shameless imperialistic invasion and destruction of their nation; IMHO hardly any favorable introduction on liberal democracy by any standard.
We agree, the Chinese people are smart.

Anyhow, if you may be aware of any relevant hard evidence on such a paradoxical reaction to the extremely painful Opium Wars (as suggested by your previous post) that you may be able to share with us, it would be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
sylla1 is offline  
Old October 10th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #94
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinger256 View Post
Beiyang fleet was definitely a mighty modernized fleet, largest in asia if I recall, but it didn't fair well against the Japanese. I don't think it's out of the question to assume that the beiyang fleet wasn't used due to fear of being destroyed by the french, so it's quite in the realm of possibility that french could have emulated the results of Japan.




Rarely do nations get every demand they want from a war unless it is one where the whole country is occupied. France didn't even pay any indemnities, but the truth is that France won the war and they acquired tonkin, a fairly large piece of land. There is no doubt that China halted the french plans in taiwan but I don't think that it concludes that China won or was winning the war. If China had thought they were in a better situation they would have continued the war, but they found a joint french japan invasion/alliance to dangerous and opted for lenient offers to the french.
It didn't fair well against japan because its commanders were high on opium and didn't know how to aim, some of the ships shot themselves in the bridge. the beiyang army and fleet just sucked for some reason in 1895, some of the same generals who fought in the sino japanese war and lost terribly to japan, like nie shicheng and ma yukun, later returned in the boxer rebellion to defeat the first allied attempt on beijing and kill hundreds of allies at tianjin. Ma yukun's forces also exacted proportional cacasualties from the allies at yangcun and beicang, at beicang even more allies were killed than chinese.

These same commanders five years earlier had their entire armies fleeing after firing one shot and literally collapsing. Their performance was not consistent, against japan their armies were a moving mass of incompetent life forms who didn't know how to aim or shoot, in the boxer rebellion they fired hundreds of shells and bullets at the allies and stood their ground, making the allies pay for every inch they took, and killing important officers like american colonel liscum.

And even then, at tianjin and yangcun and beicang, the allies said that the chinese forces were not doing their best and were being horribly incompetent. An incompetent army which managed to kill and wound hundreds of allies, if they were competent they could have wiped them out, the american marines remarked about how they could have been destroyed if the chinese mounted a proper assault on them outside of tianjin.

The allies also numbered in the tens of thousands on their second expedition to beijing. They quite possibly outnumbered the regular imperial army.

Li Hongzhang never wanted to commit his forces to any war at all. During the dungan revolt, he advocated abandoning xinjiang and instead spend money on building coastal fortifications which he never planned on using.

The only reason why he had to get involved in the sino japanese war was because korea was right next to northern china and he would look like an absolute arse if he didn't participate. In the boxer rebellion, li hongzhang and yuan shikai could have joined in and crushed the invasion, but they hated the boxers and didn't want to get involved in any fight. Their rationale for fighting thr boxers and not the alliance was that the boxers wanted to drag china into a war Lmao, li hongzhang spent millions buying krupp guns and buulding forts and buying new weapons and even building thw tianjin military academy on a western model, and after he did that he says he doesn't want a fight.

If he was alive today he would be an international laughingstock for stockpiling millions of dollars in arms and planning to not got involved in any war for the next century.
deke is offline  
Old October 10th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #95

UberHistorian1's Avatar
Academician
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: New York
Posts: 74

in my mind, if the chinese didn't go isolationist during the ming dynasty, the world would be very different from what it is today
UberHistorian1 is offline  
Old October 11th, 2012, 09:20 PM   #96
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
In the initial encounters between china and the european powers, the chinese won every single battle. The portuguese, dutch, and russians were all defeated on their first encounters with china, a span of over 200 years.

First Battle of Tamao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second Battle of Tamao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battle of Liaoluo Bay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Siege of Fort Zeelandia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningbo_Massacre_(1542)

Russian

Ningpo Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





China won five battles against the french in the sino french war and forced the end of the war by ending it with a catastrophic french retreat from lang son. The french got vietnam not because they won it by conquest, but in exchange for removing themselves from taiwan, where their attempted conquest of the island ended in defeat and they ended up being pinned at keelung for the entire war.

At taku forts in 1859, chinese batteries smashed an anglo french fleet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taku_Forts_(1859)

The
Battle of C

Keelung Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battle of Tamsui - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battle of Phu Lam Tao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_..._(Zhennan_Pass)


Modern Chinese Warfare - Bruce Elleman - Google Books

The sino french war ended with a french retrated from lang son and chinese recapture of the city.

Retreat from Lang Son - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books

Ban (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern Chinese Warfare - Bruce Elleman - Google Books

The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books


The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books
These two were formatted incorrectly in my last comment, I fixed the link here and the articles are sourced.

Battle of Taku Forts (1859) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battle of Bang Bo (Zhennan Pass) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tonkin_Affair Tonkin_Affair

All the articles are sourced with references.

And it was france who demanded that china pay an indemnity when the war began, and the war ended without china paying.

Last edited by deke; October 11th, 2012 at 09:31 PM.
deke is offline  
Old October 13th, 2012, 01:53 AM   #97

yapxingguan's Avatar
Citizen
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Manila
Posts: 35

only superior in terms of minimum wage i guess :P
yapxingguan is offline  
Old November 14th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #98
Citizen
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: China HangZhou
Posts: 3

China was the top of the world for two thousands an fall behind in the past 200 years .The Oriental civilization at this stage really lagging behind Western civilization, the inertia of the reason is the long cultural tradition and long advantage Inertia .a wealthy man enough to live comfortably in no mood to change, and the process of civilization was twice interrupted by other races but the poor family property not the thick are looking forward to the change to change the fate. so, the change in the West go in front. Historical accumulation of wealth of rare, just as U.S. entrepreneurs say, you can take away all my property, just leave my staff, give me 20 years, I will rebuild my business empire. The United States now commit the mistakes of the dominant companies in the Spring and Autumn Period, longer follow a road to death. Which a long history and lessons to learn Chinese and Oriental civilization good.
skytale is offline  
Old November 14th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #99

scottishwarlord's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2011
From: Inpenetrable Couch Fort
Posts: 190

I think we're superior in terms of freedom.
scottishwarlord is offline  
Old November 15th, 2012, 03:41 AM   #100

Lucius's Avatar
the governed self
 
Joined: Jan 2007
From: Nebraska
Posts: 11,409

Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Sorry for missing this kind answer so long ago
No problem. I am familiar with the phenomenon.

Quote:
52 years (actually 73 years from the beginning of the first war) are two human generations plus (or three from the beginning of the 1st war), definitively a long time by any standard for any potential correlation between both phenomena.
As to that, European countries were accustomed to having wars with each other every 20 years or so with only minor border fluctuations resulting. In any case, from the fall of the Roman Empire to Thomas Jefferson was 1,345 years. What is 73 years compared to that?

Quote:
IMHO the intelligentsia of China or any other place could only have felt nausated by the impressively noxious ...
Yes, they would have felt a feeling. But after they had had a lie down they would have thought a thought, to wit; "How did this most unlikely turn of events come to pass? Ignorant savages have come to our Middle Kingdom from the other side of the planet and arranged our affairs to their liking. We must become like them. But more so."

The rest is history/current events.
Lucius is online now  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

Tags
chinese, europeans or westerners, superior


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gifts from King Farouk to Westerners Oskar Ancient History 4 October 10th, 2011 08:02 AM
The Europeans Reached the New World with copies of Chinese Maps? llingjie Speculative History 25 July 26th, 2011 04:32 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.