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Old November 15th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #161

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Good examples, now I respect him as a decent MAN. (I do think that Rommel was by far the greatest of generals in WWII) But what are your reasons why he is the best military commander, in order to be the best you need to do a lot more than respect the enemy dead.
Makes me smile, the Rommel myth is a lasting testiment to the abilities and effectiveness of Dr. Goebbel's propaganda ministry.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #162
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I also tend to disagree with the assessment of our Locke here, but on different grounds; please allow me to post some extracts from a previous post of yours truly in another Rommel-related thread which still reflect my position here:

According to the first-hand account of the British brigadier Desmond Young, the origin of Rommel's legend was fundamentally the British media.

Rommel: Desert Fox: Desmond Young: 9780688067717: Amazon.com: Books
Rommel: Desert Fox: Desmond Young: 9780688067717: Amazon.com: Books


The reason seems pretty obvious.

Contrary to most of his peers of the Wehrmacht, Herr Rommel was not just defeating Soviet commanders.

In fact, he actually never fought in the critical Eastern Front, which was >80% of the European WW2 in numerical terms previous to D-Day.

Just remember that even by the time of El-Alamein II, only one of each fifty Wehrmacht divisions (1:50) was fighting against non-Soviet enemies.

So for the global scale of WW2 Herr Rommmel was actually at the command of a pretty secondary theater of war.

His specialty was routing British and sometimes even American commanders.

It was only natural that the Western media were exponentially more interested in him than in any brilliant German commander of the Eastern Front.

Far as I can tell, Herr Goebbels & co, were much more busy promoting commanders from the Eastern Front (exponentially more critical for his intended audience) like let say Walter Model.

I.e. where the vast, vast majority of the relatives of Herr Goebbels' audience were being slaughtered.

That said, being as objective as possible, Herr Rommel was clearly both an extremely gifted tactician and strategist.

Not being the supreme commander, he simply did wonders with what he had at his disposition in North Africa.

Just compare the performance of the Italian units under his command with virtually any other unit of such nationality all along this war, even the very same divisions under any other command.

That said, IMHO (just that) it's evident that there were several other far better German commanders, like the aforementioned Model, Guderian or Manstein.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:34 AM   #163
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Makes me smile, the Rommel myth is a lasting testiment to the abilities and effectiveness of Dr. Goebbel's propaganda ministry.
What?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:38 AM   #164

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What?
We call it "hype" nowadays.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 04:14 AM   #165

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Just compare the performance of the Italian units under his command with virtually any other unit of such nationality all along this war, even the very same divisions under any other command.
Erm, OK.
How about the Ravenna and Cosseria Divisions of the Italian 8th Army (ironic) who when attacked by 15 Soviet divisions and outnumbered 9:1, held them off for 9 days before being ordered to withdraw during the battle of Stalingrad. --Ciro Paoletti, A Military History of Italy.

Or the breakout by the Alpini Divisions at Nikolayevka, Jan 13-26th 1943, In fifteen days the soldiers covered 200 km on foot, fought twentytwo engagements, having spent fourteen nights camped in the middle of the Russian steppe with temperatures during the nights falling to −40 C.then, they finally launched a bayonet charge to take the village and break through the soviet defences, giving birth to the legend that, "the only force that can regard itself as undefeated on Russian soil is the Italian Alpini corps".

Not a Rommel in sight.

Sorry Sylla1, I get tired of coming across this myth of universal Italian military incompetence, unless they were under Rommel's command. True the Italians suffered some catastrophic defeats in Africa, but that was more due to Mussolini's unrealistic ambitions, than Italian incompetence.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:09 PM   #166
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Erm, OK.
How about the Ravenna and Cosseria Divisions of the Italian 8th Army (ironic) who when attacked by 15 Soviet divisions and outnumbered 9:1, held them off for 9 days before being ordered to withdraw during the battle of Stalingrad. --Ciro Paoletti, A Military History of Italy.

Or the breakout by the Alpini Divisions at Nikolayevka, Jan 13-26th 1943, In fifteen days the soldiers covered 200 km on foot, fought twentytwo engagements, having spent fourteen nights camped in the middle of the Russian steppe with temperatures during the nights falling to −40 C.then, they finally launched a bayonet charge to take the village and break through the soviet defences, giving birth to the legend that, "the only force that can regard itself as undefeated on Russian soil is the Italian Alpini corps".

Not a Rommel in sight.

Sorry Sylla1, I get tired of coming across this myth of universal Italian military incompetence, unless they were under Rommel's command. True the Italians suffered some catastrophic defeats in Africa, but that was more due to Mussolini's unrealistic ambitions, than Italian incompetence.
I'm sorry, but "myth" regularly implies claims not backed by evidence, certainly not the case of either Herr Rommel or the objectively poor performance of the IUtalian armed forces relative to virtually any other major contender of this war.

On the former, just ask Connor, Wavel, Cunningham, Auchinlek and a fistful of additional brave contenders.

On the other hand, and as myths go, where is exactly any hard evidence on the purported "9:1" superiority of these units as reported by Mr Paoletti?

AFAIK the "never-exhausting" Soviet armies were far more easily claimed than proved.

(Should we infer that such Italian surname might imply a potentially biased Italian author?)

BTW, shouldn't "9:1" imply as a minimum 18 enemy divisions???

Because regarding the utterly abundant available evidence on the Italian performance in the Eastern Front (let say Col. Glantz et al) AFAIK it simply couldn't be any poorer by any standard.

After all, all the Ravenna and Cosseria Divisions did (as all the 8th Italina Army) was just let themselves be slaughtered, right?
Because in strict tactical & strategic terms their mission was still a swift & absolute failure, right?

Especially if you compare their performance with the Romanian units in the same battle, not to mention the German ones...

Not that any potentially extreme heroic deed of any Italian unit would affect an inch the precision of my previous commentary on Herr Rommel's objective performance.

Last edited by sylla1; November 15th, 2012 at 01:48 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:26 PM   #167
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We call it "hype" nowadays.
Lol, I get ya now.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #168
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I suggest Michael the Brave of Moldavia for unifying Romania and defeating numerically superior armies on several occasions, Uesegi Kenshin for being the only man to defeat Oda Nobunaga in battle (and would of gone on to finish the job had it not been for an untimely spear up his arse courtesy of the shinobi) and Charles XII of Sweden for almost defeating Russia, Poland-Lithuania, Denmark-Norway, Saxony and Prussia mostly alone.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #169

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Old November 19th, 2012, 01:08 AM   #170
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1. Scipio Africanus for military strategy

2. Augustus Caesar for overall improvements

3. Hannibal also for military strategy

4. Winston Churchill for political charisma

5. Gustav Wasa for military success and overall reforms
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