Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 31st, 2012, 05:41 AM   #101

Carl J. Weber's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Chicago
Posts: 136

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
So the terminology and title used for your thesis is not published then?

Your association to it is only that you have used in giving lectures and papers etc? Purely verbal, though while connected to you not through the medium of print?

It's really about if you are or are not published.
No, not purely verbal. "Marquette Map Hoax" has been searchable on line for years and directs the search to my materials.

Quote:
This other academic offers a rebuttal of your ideas in his work? Surely he must therefore mention you so as to indicate whom he is countering? Therefore he must cite you in a general sense? Yet if your work is not published, he doesnt have to cite you specifically (because there is no published material to cite), but he may attempt to cite unpublished works, but thats very much a grey area.
I'm not at this point talking about the content of his work. The content of his work is in a paper he wrote that he won't make available, but he gives lectures against me based on the paper. The current fuzzy-around-the-edges meaning of "published" includes anything on the internet for general consumption. Guidelines for citing this form of material are in all the style manuals. Simply put, if something is on the internet, regardless of the content, if one uses "language" or "expressions" from it as one's own, it falls under the common dictionary definition of plagiarism.

Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 31st, 2012 at 05:48 AM.
Carl J. Weber is offline  
Remove Ads
Old July 31st, 2012, 05:49 AM   #102

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,443
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
No, not purely verbal. "Marquette Map Hoax" has been searchable on line for years and directs the search to my materials.

I'm not at this point talking about the content of his work. The content of his work is in a paper he wrote that he won't make available, but he gives lectures against me based on the paper. The current fuzzy-around-the-edges meaning of "published" include anything on the internet for general consumption. Guidelines for citing this form of material are in all the style manuals.

While he may very well have pinched the phrase from you and you may have regularly used that terminology, nothing is in hard print.

In such academic circles if its not in print under your name, then its relatively fair game.

As such, its tough luck Im afraid there.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 06:14 AM   #103

Carl J. Weber's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Chicago
Posts: 136

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
While he may very well have pinched the phrase from you and you may have regularly used that terminology, nothing is in hard print.
"Pinch" is trivializing the offense in the matter. And I agree that it is trivial. But to cheat, lie, or steal by any other name is still what it is, regardless of "grand" or "petty". You insist on "hard print". The disseminated "written" or "printed" word is at issue? You insist that to be plagiarized it must have rolled off the printing press. We disagree. Dialogue from movies can be plagiarized. [quote]
In such academic circles if its not in print under your name, then its relatively fair game.[/unquote] "Relatively"? To what? Plagiarism is not limited to academic circles. When I would grade papers for my colleges classes, and I searched suspected use of language, no matter where they pinched it from, it was straight to the dean's office.
Quote:

As such, its tough luck Im afraid there.
Thanks for the thoughts.




Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 31st, 2012 at 07:02 AM.
Carl J. Weber is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 06:49 AM   #104

Carl J. Weber's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Chicago
Posts: 136

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Actually I'm making reference to what is possible to find now on that site [it's obvious they changed something from the time you took that picture and today].

Today the page shows this:

Chicago Map Society: David Buisseret and Carl Kupfer, The Marquette Map validated; a hoax unhoaxed | Newberry

Click the image to open in full size.

The matter of fact they changed the headline means they noted something. And they took some action.

It's a first step.
Thanks for taking the time to look into it. Yes, no doubt, they did note something. The unchanged original is still, I think, on the internet, but at this moment, if it IS, I can't find it.
Here is another. In the Cambridge they say "many" have doubted the map's, authenticity. In the Newberry they say "some". In the professor's talk on March 15, my name was the only name mentioned. I was there. I voiced my thoughts.

Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 31st, 2012 at 06:56 AM.
Carl J. Weber is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 06:52 AM   #105

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,443
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
"Pinch" is trivializing the offense in the matter. And I agree that it is trivial. But to cheat, lie, or steal by any other name is still what it are, regardless of "grand" or "petty". You insist on "hard print". The disseminated "written" or "printed" word is at issue? You insist that to be plagiarized it must have rolled off the printing press. We disagree. Dialogue from movies can be plagiarized.
Quote:
In such academic circles if its not in print under your name, then its relatively fair game.[/unquote] "Relatively"? To what? Plagiarism is not limited to academic circles. When I would grade papers for my colleges classes, and I searched suspected use of language, no matter where they pinched it from, it was straight to the deans office.
Its a matter of how much people are going to care. If its not in print with your name attached, people will care a hell of a lot less. It matters little about other circles, its the one you are currently in, the academic one that you should be concerned about, and there it is all about print. It may very well be plagarism, but is it really something you can stand on. As I said a case of tough luck.

Last edited by DreamWeaver; July 31st, 2012 at 06:57 AM.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 11:27 AM   #106

JoeGlidden's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: New York
Posts: 362

With as much sarcasm as possible, I do enjoy how the concept of plagiarism has become an "Oh well, you can't beat the system" argument.

It's almost shameful that the argument would focus around history being different from hard sciences. Thievery occurs in all areas of study, from chemistry to literature and the nature of the work doesn't make the crime any different. From what I have seen, the overwhelming opinion is, "If you don't publish it, it's not your idea." So I'm guessing I could lift content from historum bloggers and credit it as my own; your response would have to be "tough luck, should have published it."
JoeGlidden is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 11:38 AM   #107

JoeGlidden's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: New York
Posts: 362

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
Plagiarism is not limited to academic circles. When I would grade papers for my colleges classes, and I searched suspected use of language, no matter where they pinched it from, it was straight to the dean's office.
On another note, thanks for doing your best to fight plagiarism at the college level. I had one professor threaten to send me to the department chair because I failed to put quotation marks around two words, which now that I think of it were two words that the author had used so frequently it became, in a sense, their idea. I had another professor who kept a running list of people who used "paper-farms" and cut-and-paste copying to write english papers and there were plenty of cases of plagiarism when I was attending library school where students were using cut-and-paste. It really escapes me how people can think professors are oblivious to such obvious efforts to cheat and how other people can think that it's ok to do so, or that it isn't a big deal.
JoeGlidden is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 12:18 PM   #108

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 19,492
Blog Entries: 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
Thanks for taking the time to look into it. Yes, no doubt, they did note something. The unchanged original is still, I think, on the internet, but at this moment, if it IS, I can't find it.
Here is another. In the Cambridge they say "many" have doubted the map's, authenticity. In the Newberry they say "some". In the professor's talk on March 15, my name was the only name mentioned. I was there. I voiced my thoughts.
Well, I think the matter is becoming intriguing for me. As I said, I love ancient cartography [I cannot count how many in Italy own the work issued by the Estense library in 2002 in cooperation with the Italian Culture Activity Ministry, but I'm among them].

Now, we would be around 1673-74. And Father Marquette accepted to travel with an other explorer, the French Louis Jolliet. Probably it's useless to say that the papers in possession of Jolliet were lost because of fire.

So, I should check if it is possible to find a kind of "standard level" in drawing a map by a Jesuit of his time [Jesuits had a wide education and for sure they saw maps on papers].

Anyway, as I said [and I underline this], I'm not a professional, so it's a "summer interest", if you want.

What I can suggest is to keep the matter alive, then, they have already changed something, I wouldn't be pessimist that the Library will take some further decisions.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 04:22 PM   #109

Carl J. Weber's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Chicago
Posts: 136

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Well, I think the matter is becoming intriguing for me. As I said, I love ancient cartography [I cannot count how many in Italy own the work issued by the Estense library in 2002 in cooperation with the Italian Culture Activity Ministry, but I'm among them].

Now, we would be around 1673-74. And Father Marquette accepted to travel with an other explorer, the French Louis Jolliet. Probably it's useless to say that the papers in possession of Jolliet were lost because of fire.

So, I should check if it is possible to find a kind of "standard level" in drawing a map by a Jesuit of his time [Jesuits had a wide education and for sure they saw maps on papers].

Anyway, as I said [and I underline this], I'm not a professional, so it's a "summer interest", if you want.

What I can suggest is to keep the matter alive, then, they have already changed something, I wouldn't be pessimist that the Library will take some further decisions.
Have a good time exploring the explorers. It gets very complicated very quickly. That Marquette "accepted to travel with Jolliet", if you are specifically speaking about "accepted" from the government officials Frontenac and Talon, it is a fakery, written in a document "discovered" in 1842, among the same documents the Marquette Map Hoax map was found.

There was never any mention of Marquette by officials in the 1670s period documents. Jolliet yes, Marquette no. The original Marquette/Jolliet story, map and narrative, were accepted from 1681 to 1852 -- then these two documents were replaced by another narrative and map.
Carl J. Weber is offline  
Old July 31st, 2012, 04:34 PM   #110

Carl J. Weber's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Chicago
Posts: 136

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeGlidden View Post
With as much sarcasm as possible, I do enjoy how the concept of plagiarism has become an "Oh well, you can't beat the system" argument.

It's almost shameful that the argument would focus around history being different from hard sciences. Thievery occurs in all areas of study, from chemistry to literature and the nature of the work doesn't make the crime any different. From what I have seen, the overwhelming opinion is, "If you don't publish it, it's not your idea." So I'm guessing I could lift content from historum bloggers and credit it as my own; your response would have to be "tough luck, should have published it."
I hate to wax sanctimonious, but I will. The reason in the cultural credo why we should not lie, cheat and steal is not because of the consequences of getting caught. It's for how one feels about oneself.
Carl J. Weber is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

Tags
carl j. weber, chicago map society, forgery, marquette map hoax, plagiarism



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Plagiarism in the Field of History JoeGlidden General History 8 July 29th, 2012 04:54 PM
Plagiarism Ranke General History 10 April 20th, 2008 04:53 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.