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Old July 28th, 2012, 04:28 AM   #11

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confronting on plagiarism


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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
History of mapping the world is also an interest of mine [but not professional]. A part this detail, taking a look at your site, I can have an idea of the dispute.

Personally in such a situation I would have asked, in public, in occasion of the meeting of the Chicago Map Society,

1 if he was using your words for real
2 if yes, why was he doing that

If someone avoids public questions ...
Thanks for the comment. I have asked, and brought it up online. There is a record of it.

Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 28th, 2012 at 05:12 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 04:32 AM   #12

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not fall within the definition


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Originally Posted by dagul View Post
The words were played differently so it does not fall within the definition of plagiarism.
Thanks for the comment. My slant on it is he was using my words as if they were his own to publicize a talk attacking my ideas without mentioning they were my ideas. Please note my friendly opposition to you: Definitions of plagiarism in dictionaries say, but in different words, that if someone's words are "played" differently (or there is a transparent deliberate attempt at a "workaround"), it is still the "p" word. Incidentally, I started my work on this 12 years ago, and I am dedicated to revising the LaSalle/Marquette/Jolliet history. The plagiarism matter is really a trifle, but a serious one. The subjects of my work are in the 1650-1700 French Exploration of the heartland of America through maps matched with texts.

Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 28th, 2012 at 05:39 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old July 28th, 2012, 04:59 AM   #13

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Originally Posted by History Chick View Post
text below
I don't fully understand what he is meant to have plagiarised? Just the title? If he's making a rebuttal to your thesis, it's understandable he would need to use the title of your thesis. Then shouldn't one think that he should say it was Weber's thesis? I think, yes. In his Cambridge post, he was announcing the defense of the authenticity of the map, and posted "many in recent times had questioned its authenticity". There were no "many", only me. He didn't mention me. He was using my words to announce a talk against me, not "many". I had called him on this "many". And I'm not entirely sure something as short as a title [shortness takes second place to using some else's words as your own] can be copyrighted and counted as plagiarism anyway, especially when it is not the exact same title (he did add the word "great" and "a hoax unhoaxed"). This falls under trademark, not copyright. In the academic world the issue is integrity, in the real world damages might be involved. Many books have the exact same titles for completely different works by different authors and I know there was no kind of permissions given to use it. This is somewhat different because it is pro and con of the same historical subject matter at issue.

To be frank, it sounds more like you're miffed [true] because he's "attacked you by name" and you're trying to find a way to get back at him/shut him up. No, I'm trying to get my ideas out there... and I am, little by little. I'm sorry but he's entitled to make a rebuttal [but he should provide written references] to your thesis and it makes sense he would mention you by name and use your title if his argument is a direct response to your thesis. In his Cambridge and Newberry Library announcements, he never mentioned my name, but used my words to make, as he said, attracting people to the talk sound more "jazzy". His spin was that he was attempting to refute many historians, whereas it was only me. And if he's mentioning you by name, I think it's pretty clear he is not using your words as his own. Sorry, but for all these reasons I don't think you have a case for plagiarism. Again, he did not mention my name in the announcement. He could have said, "is the Marquette map authentic" or any number of other words. And putting "great" in front of "Great Marquette Map Hoax; a hoax unhoaxed" was deliberate sarcasm against me.

I agree with Cavanboy, if he has nothing to back up his argument, people will see through it so I wouldn't worry about it. Not true, and he will not put the material of his talk in writing. People will believe an expert simply because he has an impressive academic track record. To analyze and see through an argument, as in this case, means years of research. Who has the time. You have to trust the experts. The material he used against only me (not against many) in his talk I can not critique because he won't give me the references. I am familiar with his references, but to be "academically proper" I have to have them in writing before I can counter them.

Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 28th, 2012 at 05:43 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 05:33 AM   #14

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This doesn't look to me to be a case of plagiarism at all. Plagiarism is the unacknowledged borrowing of arguments and content, but the professor has merely referred to the claim that you have been making to try to rebut it. At the most this is a reference to the title of your forthcoming thesis (though you say that you have already argued the point in public). As a parallel, one might take the well-known book, 'The End of History'; would it be plagiarism if someone were to publish an article entitled 'The End of History, or a New Beginning?' ? It sounds to me as if you are being over-sensitive. If one puts forward controversial views in the academic world, other people are going to dispute them, and sharply or mockingly on occasion. This you have to accept with good grace. Everything turns on the quality of your own work.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 05:41 AM   #15

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
I don't fully understand what he is meant to have plagiarised? Just the title? If he's making a rebuttal to your thesis, it's understandable he would need to use the title of your thesis. In his Cambridge post, he was announcing the defense of the authenticity of the map, and posted "many in recent times had questioned its authenticity". There were no "many", only me. He didn't mention me and that he was using my words to announce a talk against me, not "many". I had called him on this "many".
Well, that's inaccurate but it's not plagiarism.

Quote:
And I'm not entirely sure something as short as a title can be copyrighted and counted as plagiarism anyway, especially when it is not the exact same title (he did add the word "great" and "a hoax unhoaxed"). This falls under trademark, not copyright. In the academic world the issue is integrity, in the real world damages might be involved. Many books have the exact same titles for completely different works by different authors and I know there was no kind of permissions given to use it. This is somewhat different because the same subject matter is at issue.
Yes, and the book titles I'm thinking of are often on the same subject matter. But if this is what it comes down to, whether your thesis title could be trademarked, I think you would need to consult a lawyer.

Quote:
To be frank, it sounds more like you're miffed [true] because he's "attacked you by name" and you're trying to find a way to get back at him/shut him up. I'm sorry but he's entitled to make a rebuttal to your thesis and it makes sense he would mention you by name and use your title if his argument is a direct response to your thesis. In his Cambridge and Newberry Library announcement, he never mentioned my name, but used my words to make attracting people to the talk sound more "jazzy". His spin was that he was attempting to refute many historians, whereas it was only me. And if he's mentioning you by name, I think it's pretty clear he is not using your words as his own. Sorry, but for all these reasons I don't think you have a case for plagiarism. Again, he did not mention my name in the announcement. He could have said, "is the Marquette map authentic" or any number of other words. And putting "great" in front of "Great Marquette Map Hoax; a hoax unhoaxed" was deliberate sarcasm against me.
I agree he might be misrepresenting things but again, that doesn't mean it's plagiarism. Sarcasm as well certainly doesn't make it plagiarism. Most of your complaints seem to be centered on things unrelated to plagiarism which is why it seems like you're just grasping at threads, hoping to use the plagiarism theory to discredit him because you don't like his methods, not necessarily because it's actual plagiarism.

And ultimately, he does mention you by name - first you seemed to have a problem with that, now you're downplaying it.

Quote:
I agree with Cavanboy, if he has nothing to back up his argument, people will see through it so I wouldn't worry about it. Not true. People will believe an expert simply because he has a track record. To analyze and see through an argument, as in this case, means years of research. Who has the time. You have to trust the experts. The material he used against only me (not against many) in his talk I can not critique because he won't give me the references. I am familiar with his references, but to be "academically proper" I have to have them in writing before I can counter them.
Lay people might just accept it but in the academic field, someone who can't cite or reference a source would surely not be taken seriously?

What it comes down to is if you really think the use of "Marquette Map Hoax" is plagiarism, you'll have to consult a lawyer or at least the school board. None of the rest of it matters - the sarcasm, the misrepresenting how many have made your argument, the refusal to supply his sources, etc. All bad practise but not illegal and nothing to do with plagiarism.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 06:16 AM   #16
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I have to agree with History Chick, that you seem to be grasping at [straws] here.

The best example for why it is not plagiarism is the book Black Athena Revisted, a rebuttal to Black Athena. Others that come to mind are Crash Go The Chariots, and Some Trust In Chariots, both of which were rebuttals to Chariots of the Gods?. To make up an example, I could use Fingerprints of the Ancients to refute Fingerprints of the Gods or The Incomplete Pyramids to challenge The Complete Pyramids. It is simply a case of using a word, or phrase, which identifies a particular theory in order to refute that theory.

As to the claim of the many vs the one (you), I think you really need to think it through. You say that you have given lectures on this topic for over seven years, do you assume that nobody has ever listened to you, or that your argument is not strong enough to convince other people? Here's a hint: If your argument was weak, or nobody was paying you any attention, you would never have been invited to give that second lecture, let alone subsequent ones. Every person you have convinced through your lectures is included in the "many people".
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Old July 28th, 2012, 07:06 AM   #17

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Well considered and graceful reply to plagiarism of Marquette Map Hoax


This doesn't look to me to be a case of plagiarism at all. Plagiarism is the unacknowledged borrowing of arguments and content, [Thanks for the thoughtful reply, but I have seen no definitions of plagiarism that restrict it to arguments and content -- it is always broadly stated as using some else's words as if they were your own] but the professor has merely referred to the claim that you have been making to try to rebut it. [Shouldn't he have said whose claim it was in the announcement?] At the most this is a reference to the title of your forthcoming thesis (though you say that you have already argued the point in public)[It is not forthcoming. For seven years it has been highly searchable and unchallenged on the internet, the professor knows that. I've written papers, given talks, presented at state history conference.]. As a parallel, one might take the well-known book, 'The End of History'; would it be plagiarism if someone were to publish an article entitled 'The End of History, or a New Beginning?' ? [your example is much too general -- there could be no specific referent to "The End of History". You'll see what I mean if you google it. In the Marquette Map Hoax there is a referent. My work] It sounds to me as if you are being over-sensitive. If one puts forward controversial views in the academic world, other people are going to dispute them, and sharply or mockingly on occasion. [After seven years, not other people, one person. My thesis is very convincing, stated to be so to the average intelligent person.] This you have to accept with good grace. Everything turns on the quality of your own work.Thanks for your well considered reply as well as your good grace.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 07:22 AM   #18

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Originally Posted by History Chick View Post
Well, that's inaccurate but it's not plagiarism.



Yes, and the book titles I'm thinking of are often on the same subject matter. But if this is what it comes down to, whether your thesis title could be trademarked, I think you would need to consult a lawyer.



I agree he might be misrepresenting things but again, that doesn't mean it's plagiarism. Sarcasm as well certainly doesn't make it plagiarism. Most of your complaints seem to be centered on things unrelated to plagiarism which is why it seems like you're just grasping at threads, hoping to use the plagiarism theory to discredit him because you don't like his methods, not necessarily because it's actual plagiarism.

And ultimately, he does mention you by name - first you seemed to have a problem with that, now you're downplaying it.



Lay people might just accept it but in the academic field, someone who can't cite or reference a source would surely not be taken seriously?

What it comes down to is if you really think the use of "Marquette Map Hoax" is plagiarism, you'll have to consult a lawyer or at least the school board. None of the rest of it matters - the sarcasm, the misrepresenting how many have made your argument, the refusal to supply his sources, etc. All bad practise but not illegal and nothing to do with plagiarism.


Thanks for your sharply reasoned specific arguments. (I had consulted a lawyer. It's academic integrity at issue.) I hope you're around when I get his references to his CONTENT and write my analysis.

When the
Chicago Tribune was going to write a story about my work six years ago, which they highly praised, they said they were dropping trying to figure it out because of the "back stabbing, academic intrigue and ad hominem attacks in my area (writer, William Mullen). Revisionism about the first map of the American interior being a forgery. Juicy stuff. The professor is the only professor speaking for many who have ponies in the race, but don't know the race track.

Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 28th, 2012 at 07:28 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #19

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
Plagiarism is a serious charge. What do you say I should tell the professor who denies plagiarism -- using my words unattributed, as his own?

Since 2005 I've been using the "Marquette Map Hoax" as the name of my thesis. No one until a few months ago challenged my thesis that the first map of the American interior is a forgery from the 1840s. I gave talks to prestigious groups, wrote papers, and have for years been identified with those words. No one, that is, till this year.

A professor promoted his then-upcoming academic talk to the Chicago Map Society (where I had given my talk in 2005). He headlined in a post on a Cambridge University web page last October, "The Great Marquette Map Hoax; a hoax unhoaxed". He hasn't denied he was using my words as if they were his own. He said he used them to make his announcement sound more "jazzy".

He gave the talk in March, attacking me by name in the attempted unhoaxing (I was there). He will not provide the reference sources (!) for the presumably academic claims against me in his talk. My impression is he thinks he can slide through because I'm a little people. Not so. I'm staying on it.

I've mentioned this to him several times (we continue on a first name basis), and he simply says, regarding my observation of plagiarism, that he doesn't accept my "argument".

Any serious or witty comments on this serious issue are welcome.
I don't believe this would fall under plagiarism, as (from the sounds of it) he isn't agreeing or passing off your ideas as his own; in fact, he's disputing them. Plagiarism, academic dishonesty and copyright infringement (all overlapping) are a foggy area where there is no set line of what is infringement or plagiarism. Obviously the use of your thesis title in this manner represents a lack of originality on his part. I think based on the use of the title, his work(s) merits a closer examination because there could be cases where he does in fact pull content or ideas from your work which would fall under plagiarism.

The biggest issue today is the lack of interest in pursuing plagiarists in the professional realm, especially when publishers become involved in cases. Doris Kearns Goodwin and Stephen Ambrose are two top historical writers who have been accused (multiple times, with considerable evidence to support the allegations) of plagiarism and yet their books are still published and sold. So, I wish you luck in straightening this out. It's definitely an annoying process to have to go through.

Have you ever considered asking this gentleman to engage you in a "debate" in front of an audience to argue your points to one another? It would give you a chance to defend yourself without old ladies telling you to "shut up"
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Old July 28th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
Plagiarism is a serious charge. What do you say I should tell the professor who denies plagiarism -- using my words unattributed, as his own?

Since 2005 I've been using the "Marquette Map Hoax" as the name of my thesis. No one until a few months ago challenged my thesis that the first map of the American interior is a forgery from the 1840s. I gave talks to prestigious groups, wrote papers, and have for years been identified with those words. No one, that is, till this year.

A professor promoted his then-upcoming academic talk to the Chicago Map Society (where I had given my talk in 2005). He headlined in a post on a Cambridge University web page last October, "The Great Marquette Map Hoax; a hoax unhoaxed". He hasn't denied he was using my words as if they were his own. He said he used them to make his announcement sound more "jazzy".

He gave the talk in March, attacking me by name in the attempted unhoaxing (I was there). He will not provide the reference sources (!) for the presumably academic claims against me in his talk. My impression is he thinks he can slide through because I'm a little people. Not so. I'm staying on it.

I've mentioned this to him several times (we continue on a first name basis), and he simply says, regarding my observation of plagiarism, that he doesn't accept my "argument".

Any serious or witty comments on this serious issue are welcome.

It happens: one of my university teachers pinched a few paragraphs from a second-year essay of mine, if you will believe me, and they are there in her book. The whole business is a power-relationship at its worst. Thieving from a thesis, though, is real scumbaggery. I hope you get him! It is best served cold!
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