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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #31

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If you are so attached to the title of your thesis then perhaps you should have filed for copyright on it. It seems to me that any talk, article or piece of work concerning the marquette map and its veracity might have a title very similar to yours, and his.

Perhaps you should give your own lectures and let the public decide.
You can't copyright a title. Trademarks give a little more leeway on use of phrases and titles and such.

Carl, I would contact the gentleman whom is giving you issues and see if you can arrange for him to debate you in a forum. If he doesn't wish to, I would believe that his arguments are paper-thin at best and would continue to give lectures on your own ideas (with your evidence and references) and let the educated decide. Many will be quick to pick out the argument with the greatest amount of solidity, which, from the sounds of it, are your arguments.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:39 PM   #32

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You can't copyright a title. Trademarks give a little more leeway on use of phrases and titles and such.
Agreed. To make a mark in the academic community you need to have your work published. If you're not published, then things like this happen. It's a crappy thing to have happen, but I don't see plagiarism as a viable charge here without the work being published.

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Carl, I would contact the gentleman whom is giving you issues and see if you can arrange for him to debate you in a forum. If he doesn't wish to, I would believe that his arguments are paper-thin at best and would continue to give lectures on your own ideas (with your evidence and references) and let the educated decide. Many will be quick to pick out the argument with the greatest amount of solidity, which, from the sounds of it, are your arguments.
I like this idea. A good suggestion
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:42 PM   #33

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The call for plagiarism.
My side is he used the words I have for years been using: "Marquette Map Hoax" as if they were his own in his Cambridge announcement. His side is "I don't accept your argument". That's it. (Although he acknowledged he used my words in the Cambridge announcement because it sounded "jazzy".)

I chose the phrase with "hoax" intentionally instead of using "fraud", "forgery", "counterfeit" or some other characterization, intentionally to strike the right connotation and denotation.


What I've gathered so far is there is a lower standard in academia than in the general public for what constitutes plagiarism. I taught colleges classes in history, humanities, and English. Students love to cut and paste. They don't catch on that teachers have noses for suspiciously fancy words and phrasings. And then the deans would say the cut-and-pasters come from a different cultural background, didn't understand or read the handbook, and can't be held to the general standard.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:49 PM   #34

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You can't copyright a title. Trademarks give a little more leeway on use of phrases and titles and such.

Carl, I would contact the gentleman whom is giving you issues and see if you can arrange for him to debate you in a forum. If he doesn't wish to, I would believe that his arguments are paper-thin at best and would continue to give lectures on your own ideas (with your evidence and references) and let the educated decide. Many will be quick to pick out the argument with the greatest amount of solidity, which, from the sounds of it, are your arguments.
Thanks for the ideas and suggestions.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 01:56 PM   #35

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Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
My side is he used the words I have for years been using: "Marquette Map Hoax" as if they were his own in his Cambridge announcement. His side is "I don't accept your argument". That's it. (Although he acknowledged he used my words in the Cambridge announcement because it sounded "jazzy".)

I chose the phrase with "hoax" intentionally instead of using "fraud", "forgery", "counterfeit" or some other characterization, intentionally to strike the right connotation and denotation.


This doesn't mean much. Again, if you had a published work that had your research in it, its a whole different ballgame. This would include any verbal phrases within the work.


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What I've gathered so far is there is a lower standard in academia than in the general public for what constitutes plagiarism. I taught colleges classes in history, humanities, and English. Students love to cut and paste. They don't catch on that teachers have noses for suspiciously fancy words and phrasings. And then the deans would say the cut-and-pasters come from a different cultural background, didn't understand or read the handbook, and can't be held to the general standard.
This depends on where you're at. I can tell you we are a bit more "lenient" than high school or college levels dealing with plagiarism because the kids are just learning how to do it. You will get the occasional copy and paste job...but its more likely because they don't get what plagiarism is. By the time you are a senior in high school, one should know what constitutes plagiarism. If its true that the "cut and paste" jobs are happening at the college level, then its a real problem. I don't think it goes to the culture of the kids today as much as it goes towards those who are willing to accept plagiarism. Whomever that dean is should be fired.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #36

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Agreed. To make a mark in the academic community you need to have your work published. If you're not published, then things like this happen. It's a crappy thing to have happen, but I don't see plagiarism as a viable charge here without the work being published.



I like this idea. A good suggestion
Having material on the internet IS publishing. It is cited all the time. I've had articles published in journals. Those who don't agree just don't pay attention. There is a vast difference between journals for the hard sciences and those of the soft sciences -- which are not sciences at all.

I identified years ago the earliest known European artifact in the North American interior. I've had the Ellington Stone on the internet for years. No one has every said, "good job". Many professors will have nothing to do with discoveries they can't take at least partial credit for for themselves.

Last edited by Carl J. Weber; July 28th, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #37

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You can't copyright a title.
I meant copyright the thesis.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 02:13 PM   #38

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If you are so attached to the title of your thesis then perhaps you should have filed for copyright on it. It seems to me that any talk, article or piece of work concerning the marquette map and its veracity might have a title very similar to yours, and his.

Perhaps you should give your own lectures and let the public decide.
It relates to trademark -- the name of the thesis -- not copyright. A title very similar, ok. Identical, not ok.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 02:21 PM   #39

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It relates to trademark -- the name of the thesis -- not copyright. A title very similar, ok. Identical, not ok.
Trademark? In Italy it would be odd about a thesis, if you haven't published it under the form of a book [commercial book I mean]: if "The Marquette Map Hoax" is also the title of a book ...
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Old July 28th, 2012, 02:32 PM   #40

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Having material on the internet IS publishing. It is cited all the time.


I don't know about that. I've got stuff on the net too, but I wouldn't consider it published. It isn't backed by a university, college, organization, or the academic community. To be honest, I don't know how one would define publishing on the internet. It's sounds like we need more background on this...unless you have further insight on this of course

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I've had articles published in journals. Those who don't agree just don't pay attention. There is a vast difference between journals for the hard sciences and those of the soft sciences -- which are not sciences at all.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Everything we do is a science. Hard or soft, we still abide by the same guidelines handed down by the discipline.

As to those articles...if he took it from there then you would have a case. I don't remember reading this in anything you've posted before, but this would have been nice to know before. Did he take stuff from those articles without giving credit?


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Originally Posted by Carl J. Weber View Post
I identified years ago the earliest known European artifact in the North American interior. I've had the Ellington Stone on the internet for years. No one has every said, "good job". Many professors will have nothing to do with discoveries they can't take at least partial credit for for themselves.

But was it published? That's the difference between who gets credit and who doesn't. You can speak it, promote it, etc...in the end, the academic community want it in hard copy with the appropriate documented evidence.
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