Historum - History Forums

Historum - History Forums (http://historum.com/)
-   General History (http://historum.com/general-history/)
-   -   Top 10 armies in world history (http://historum.com/general-history/47136-top-10-armies-world-history.html)

Rocksteadyeddie September 6th, 2012 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purakjelia (Post 1190345)
Ancient Chinese army was not the only army which got overrun by nomadic tribes. Many Central Asian, Middle-Eastern, Eastern European, and even Roman armies got overrun by steppe armies.

Ancient Chinese fought the nomadic armies for thousands of years, and sometimes they even gained the upper hand.

Ancient Chinese were also good at military innovations. They invented repeating crossbows, multi-fired crossbows, triple-bow arcuballistas, primitive landmines, ceramic grenades, rocket arrows, fire lances, etc.

Yes that's true, look at the Huns in Europe!
But China was much more exposed to these peoples' and for a much longer period of time. As I have written that is the reason we have the Great Wall. It was one of the GREAT human civilisations. There is no doubt about that.

If you are implying that us westeners think the Chinese civiliation was somehow 'inferior' then I think you are mistaking.

lionmaster September 6th, 2012 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purakjelia (Post 1190335)
Lol, 30 million, where did you get that number? Out of your pure imagination I suppose?

Han did suffer from the battles with Xiongnu, but not as severe as you described. At least, Xiongnu was significantly weakened by their wars with the Han Dynasty. Both the Han and the Xiongnu suffered losses during their wars.


according to Chinese historical book "Zizhi Tongjian",the population of Han Dynasty was 60million before Han-Xiongnu war,during the war over half of Chinese population were slaughtered by the Xiongnu army. (资治通鉴: 武帝之末,海内虚耗,户口减半" By Wudi's end, the entire empire went to waste, and households were halved".) So much so that the grandiose-seeking Wudi promulgated the unprecedented Fault-Me Decree(罪己诏), apologizing to the entire Chinese people for his actions. Han Dynasty was directly destroyed by Xiongnu

lionmaster September 6th, 2012 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purakjelia (Post 1190290)
What's your point? Romans also got their ass kicked by Huns and various Germanic tribes, and Mongols also conquered Central Asia, Middle-East, and Eastern Europe.

The Song Dynasty resisted the Khitans and Jurchens for hundreds of years, and they resisted the Mongols for more than 40 years before they were finally conquered. No one could resist the mighty Mongols for 40 years at that time, except the Chinese. The war between Song and Mongols started around 1235, and it ended in 1279. In comparison, Jurchens only resisted the Mongols for about 20 years, from 1211 to 1234, and other Central Asian, Middle-Eastern, and Eastern European kingdoms and empires only resisted the Mongols for a few months to a few years.

Song Dynasty resisted Kitans and Jurchens by paying tributes,not by army.

Mongols took 40 year to conquer Chinese because the landform of Song was full of rivers and mountains.Mongols defeated Jurchen army before they defeated Chinese army.does that mean Song army was even stronger than Jurchen army by your logic?Mongols didn't conquer Japan at all,does that mean Japan was N x 100times stronger than Song Dynasty by your logic?

lionmaster September 6th, 2012 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vezir (Post 1190342)
I loved your list but you should had add "German Army of 20th Century". They fought with nearly all world and they two times tired to conquer world(ok first war was not aiming for world domination but victory would made Germany superpower).


i agree with that ,thank you :)

purakjelia September 7th, 2012 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionmaster (Post 1190357)
according to Chinese historical book "Zizhi Tongjian",the population of Han Dynasty was 60million before Han-Xiongnu war,during the war over half of Chinese population were slaughtered by the Xiongnu army. (资治通鉴: “武帝之末,海内虚耗,户口减半" By Wudi's end, the entire empire went to waste, and households were halved".) So much so that the grandiose-seeking Wudi promulgated the unprecedented Fault-Me Decree(罪己诏), apologizing to the entire Chinese people for his actions. Han Dynasty was directly destroyed by Xiongnu

Well, 资治通鉴 was written in Song dynasty, almost 1000 years after Han Dynasty, so we aren't sure whether the numbers in this book were accurate or not. Moreover, the writer Sima Guang probably had his own political agenda. He probably exaggerated the numbers in his historical record just to warn his Song emperor that it's bad to start wars because the people would suffer.

And also, the Chinese text that you posted didn't say 30 million, and it didn't say all these people were slaughtered by Xiongnu. Stop reading what's not written in there.

purakjelia September 7th, 2012 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionmaster (Post 1190400)
Song Dynasty resisted Kitans and Jurchens by paying tributes,not by army.

Mongols took 40 year to conquer Chinese because the landform of Song was full of rivers and mountains.Mongols defeated Jurchen army before they defeated Chinese army.does that mean Song army was even stronger than Jurchen army by your logic?Mongols didn't conquer Japan at all,does that mean Japan was N x 100times stronger than Song Dynasty by your logic?

Since Song Dynasty was a rich dynasty, so paying tribute was a good way to deter their enemies. I can't see anything bad about this.

Rivers and mountains also existed in other kingdoms or empires that the Mongols conquered, not just in Song territory.

Jurchens were probably very strong in the early years of 12th century. However, they became weaker afterwards. In 13th century, to compensate for their losses to the Mongols at the northern frontier, the Jurchen emperor ordered his armies to attack the Southern Song Dynasty, yet most of their campaigns against the Song at this period resulted in failures.

The Mongol conquest of Japan was a different story. First of all, Mongols might be excellent horsemen, but they sucked on ships. Secondly, the Korean and Chinese soldiers whom they forcibly recruited didn't really want to obey them and fight the Japanese. Thirdly, they chose the bad season, as they always encountered typhoons and sea storms on their way to Japan. Most of their armies were destroyed by those sea storms, not by the Japanese. Japan was rather lucky because it was an island nation, isolated from its continental neighbors. I would argue that Japan survived the Mongol conquests because of its geographical location. If Japan was a continental nation, then I'm sure the Mongols would be able to crush them.

GalataTurk September 7th, 2012 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake10 (Post 1190286)
Dude, they were raiders. The only thing that was hard was catching up to them, and, since they didn't have cities they could play a great cat and mouse game. The Huns are overrated, probably because they harassed the Romans, but only when Rome was on her way down. When Rome fell, China was clearly the most powerful nation in the world. That does not happen without a top ranked army, despite how subjective the evaluation of an army is.

You seem to forget why Great Wall of Chinese was built.It was built to prevent Turk and Mongol attacks from north.Huns were always superior to Chinese in military.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake10 (Post 1190309)
So, if it wasn't China then which nation was the most powerful? Let's look beyond military; let's look at science, culture, literature, technology and law and order.

But the thread is about military and Huns were powerful than Chinese in this case.

purakjelia September 7th, 2012 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalataTurk (Post 1190509)
You seem to forget why Great Wall of Chinese was built.It was built to prevent Turk and Mongol attacks from north.Huns were always superior to Chinese in military.



But the thread is about military and Huns were powerful than Chinese in this case.

Was the original Xiongnu related to Western Caucasian Huns or Turks? No one is able to prove this.

Did the Gokturks caused any real threats to ancient China? I remember that they got overrun by Tang armies and by other nomadic armies, that's why they fled to the west.

Your opinion is entirely subjective. Ancient Chinese armies were also very powerful. The famous Han general Chen Tang once said that before the Xiongnu adopted Han technologies, one Han soldier could defeat five Xiongnu soldiers; after they adopted Han technologies, one Han soldier could only defeat three Xiongnu soldiers.

lionmaster September 7th, 2012 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purakjelia (Post 1190479)
Well, 资治通鉴 was written in Song dynasty, almost 1000 years after Han Dynasty, so we aren't sure whether the numbers in this book were accurate or not. Moreover, the writer Sima Guang probably had his own political agenda. He probably exaggerated the numbers in his historical record just to warn his Song emperor that it's bad to start wars because the people would suffer.

And also, the Chinese text that you posted didn't say 30 million, and it didn't say all these people were slaughtered by Xiongnu. Stop reading what's not written in there.


im sorry,"Zizhi Tongjian" is one of the most important historical books of Chinese history,or u think Chinese would make up stories to belittle themselves?

Frank81 September 7th, 2012 04:21 AM

lionmaster, you are being pointless in this discussion about Chinese armies.

1. You can't take the entire history of the country and say "here you can see defeats". I can do it with every other empire.

2. Chinese diplomacy worked in a different way than western one, mutual gifts were common to strengthen relations. In any case, other powers such as Rome had to pay tribute to enemies too.

Whatever the case, the Xioungnu were totally dominated after Wudi and again with Ban-Chao. These wasn't the only success of Han Dynasty armies, which conquered Korea and extensive areas in Central Asia.

If you have doubts about Chinese performance, Tang armies of 7th century were simply the most powerful on Earth, one of the most successful armies in human history.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:11 PM.


Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.