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Old November 7th, 2012, 09:58 AM   #381

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
With all due respect, Mangekyou, you would the last person who could tell us what "presentism" may be in this thread; the colossal bias and nerver-ending fallacies (cherrypicking, bare assertions, faulty attribution, red herrings, bare denial, and myriad more) couldn't be any more evident here.
I think the way I used the term is fine

There is no denial or red herrings of any kind from my own perspective. My point is there is more to examining an empire of a nation than just saying it was "rape, plunder an murder". Yes these may have been involved in some aspects of empires and used alot more frequently in others. There are other aspects to examine though.

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For example the Stalinist analogy above; of course it is perfectly valid.
Im afraid I dont see how. If anything that seems like a red herring, imho. We are talking a colonial empire that spanned hundreds of years and multiple continents, not the government of one man who didn't care what he did to get the job done, again, in a time where colonialism was dying and more nations were becoming morally responsible.

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In plain English, you can't even remotely justify the conquest, decimation, plundering, humiliation, enslavement and eventual negligent abandonment of one fifth of this poor Planet just because of Newton, Darwin & Dawkins.
(Valuable as they have certainly been for this poor Planet)
I don't justify, nor do I denigrate anything. I wasn't born when the empire existed, so I could have no effort wasted on it. What I do though, all patriotic sentiments aside, is look at the effect of the empire. What happened to the countries that Britain bought under its sphere? How did they govern the places? what problems did they run into and how did they overcome them? Cold anything have been done differently? These are some of the questions I like to ask myself.

If, I run into an unpleasant individual who like to commit genocide or murder or even plunder, I will then hold my hand up and say he was wrong. What I do not do, is just say "because there was colonies there was murder, rape and pillaging, full stop". Yes, this happened, it happened in any type of conquest, but for some, it is not the be all and end all.

I am proud of the history of my country, but that does not mean I agreedwith everything that happened. On the contrary there are some points that sicken me. What I do respect, is the way a small nation was able to build and help contribute to the modern world.

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Nope, cricket is not enough either.
Don't forget tea.

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Another analogy:
No criminal plumber gang would be able to justify raping and slaughtering any family at home, no matter how exquisite their job on the piper of the house may have been.



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But of course, such crystal clear fact doesn't imply that some people wouldn't try, huh?
When humans are perfectly harmonious and avoid war, then come back ringing my bell over the point
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangekyou View Post
I think the way I used the term is fine

There is no denial or red herrings of any kind from my own perspective. My point is there is more to examining an empire of a nation than just saying it was "rape, plunder an murder". Yes these may have been involved in some aspects of empires and used alot more frequently in others. There are other aspects to examine though.



Im afraid I dont see how. If anything that seems like a red herring, imho. We are talking a colonial empire that spanned hundreds of years and multiple continents, not the government of one man who didn't care what he did to get the job done, again, in a time where colonialism was dying and more nations were becoming morally responsible.



I don't justify, nor do I denigrate anything. I wasn't born when the empire existed, so I could have no effort wasted on it. What I do though, all patriotic sentiments aside, is look at the effect of the empire. What happened to the countries that Britain bought under its sphere? How did they govern the places? what problems did they run into and how did they overcome them? Cold anything have been done differently? These are some of the questions I like to ask myself.

If, I run into an unpleasant individual who like to commit genocide or murder or even plunder, I will then hold my hand up and say he was wrong. What I do not do, is just say "because there was colonies there was murder, rape and pillaging, full stop". Yes, this happened, it happened in any type of conquest, but for some, it is not the be all and end all.

I am proud of the history of my country, but that does not mean I agreedwith everything that happened. On the contrary there are some points that sicken me. What I do respect, is the way a small nation was able to build and help contribute to the modern world.



Don't forget tea.








When humans are perfectly harmonious and avoid war, then come back ringing my bell over the point
Yup, I know you unequivocally think so; we are finally able to agree here.

In spite of your obvious fallacious Straw Man, above I have been rather careful here & elsewhere not to "denigrate" absolutely anyone here or elsewere, either human individuals or collective identities...
As anyone here could easily verify on their own, of course.

While for any obscure reason well beyond my better understanding you couldn't have been any more compulsively and futilely trying to justify the unjustifiable, here & elsewhere...
As anyone here could easily verify on their own, of course.

Nope, I don't forget tea.

BTW, what exactly of the Plumber Gang analogy would you find ???

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When humans are perfectly harmonious and avoid war, then come back ringing my bell over the point
Guess you couldn't be unaware by now that asking for impossible perfection couldn't be any more blatant fallacy (often called the Nirvana Fallacy) even for the standards of your already admittedly impressively long list, right ?
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:24 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
I'm new here, but it seems to me there are several logic errors in some of this thread.

1) Using the ethics and morals of the 21st Century to judge the 16th-18th... Look, it sure was an ugly time, but inside the concepts of life and rights at the time there was no difference except scale.

2) There also seems to be on some posters, an assumption that everything would have been an idyllic existence without the interference of the Empire Builders. Yet things were very ugly (especially compared to today) almost universally.
A) Was the slave trade as executed by the Europeans a horrible and ugly business? Most certainly! But it existed in Africa for a millennium before the Europeans showed up.
B) Was the Spanish invasion of Central & Meso America a heartless disaster for the locals? For certain... but they weren't singing kumbaya and group hugging before the west arrived. There was organized slaughter for religious purposes on a scale that would make the Inquisition envious...

My only point is to debate how horrible the past is by today's standards seems to me to be a complete waste of time. It's plenty horrible enough by even their own standards. Do you think the English expansion of Empire was really worse than Tammerlane's? Or the death count was higher in India than from Napoleon's Empirical conquests?

Only one society in the history of the planet ever hit it's peak and didn't try and expand; China's Qin empire, who in voyages of discovery found out there was a big world out there (India, East Africa, and the Malaysian chains at least), and decided they were already better and didn't want to dirty their hands mucking with the others.

Jammer
Welcome to Historum, Jammer; interesting first posts.

1) Yup, because let say taking what is not yours was surely not called stealing...
You know, the Shakespearian Rose by another name.

2 a) & b) So under such nicely relativistic standards if any weirdo may have arguably performed any horrendous crime anywhere all around this Planet all along History, it would be perfectly legitimate to perform the same action as long as it may be arguably a bit less horrendous, right?

Please check out above my link on the Nirvana Fallacy in a previous post; it will be extremely useful.

I may have said it before, but my only point is that one simply couldn't ask any utterly conquered, decimated, plundered, humiliated, enslaved, and eventually negligently abandoned nation or people to just say "thanks"...

Last edited by sylla1; November 7th, 2012 at 10:30 AM.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:26 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Brisieis View Post
Luckily not all of us feel like he does, Jinnit.

Oh yer! I bet you would be the first to get off the Tube if a beared Asian carrying a big rucksack sat down next to you.

1. I would like to see you defend 7/7 bombings in London.
2 Do you say the billions our security services are spending each year to protect us from 'our own citizens' is correct?

If you can't defend No.1, and say that No2 is correct, then you DO feel like me.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #385
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Thank you Sylla...

"2 a) & b) :So under such nicely relativistic standards if any weirdo may have arguably performed any horrendous crime anywhere all around this Planet all along History, it would be perfectly legitimate to perform the same action as long as it may be arguably a bit less horrendous, right?"


No. It is as much an error of logic to assume you can behave today by older standards as judge their behavior by today's standards...

I merely pointed out the 16th century was a pretty horrible place in almost all societies, because concepts we take for granted, such as human rights, individual dignity, etc. were not even CONCEPTS yet.
At least not for anyone except those strong enough and dangerous enough to claim and enforce them.

As for expecting a "thank you", a colonizer would need to smoke some of that opium they were shipping to China to believe that. For a small population to Lord it over a large population they need to act, behave, and always comport themselves as the superior man. Any failure of this edifice might prove fatal. The underdog spends generations wanting to BE that person, and when the day comes they cam assume that seat any colonizer who expects anything less than a boot in the rear and expectorant following them out the door is a dreamer.

Jammer

Last edited by Jammer; November 7th, 2012 at 10:44 AM.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:34 AM   #386

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Originally Posted by Boy Blue View Post
Oh yer! I bet you would be the first to get off the Tube if a beared Asian carrying a big rucksack sat down next to you.

1. I would like to see you defend 7/7 bombings in London.
2 Do you say the billions our security services are spending each year to protect us from 'our own citizens' is correct?

If you can't defend No.1, and say that No2 is correct, then you DO feel like me.
.

do you think India is never bombed India faces more terrorist attacks than whole europe combined and frankly anyone who has to be blamed is the american government for meddling in afganistan and pakistan, if they had not supported islamic terrorist outfits in pakistan and afganistan and actualy prevented them taking power in afganistan in the very beginning you wouldnt be facing such terrorist attack
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:51 AM   #387

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post

BTW, what exactly of the Plumber Gang analogy would you find ???
Well wasn't sure whether it was kettle logic or not, so I wasn't sure how to reply.

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Guess you couldn't be unaware by now that asking for impossible perfection couldn't be any more blatant fallacy (often called the Nirvana Fallacy) even for the standards of your already admittedly impressively long list, right ?
I was simply providing my own response, to your
Loaded_question Loaded_question


We seem to get by using alot of formal/informal fallacies dont we?

Your favourite seems to be argumentum verbosium, which I wont lie, I respect the way that you construct this method in your posts. Kudos to you, sir!
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:12 AM   #388

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Now here's finally a point on which we couldn't 100% agree any more.

Fun & knowledge; what more could we ask for?
I am horrible at history however I am open to learn.....

You seem to be very good with research.....I am curious to explore the good aspect of the British rule....Can provide a view on what you consider to be a good aspect of colonization????

Anyone???
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:35 AM   #389

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Even as fantastic chauvinistic wishful thinking goes, this delirious rosy fairy tale couldn't be any hillarious to the Nth degree.

That's exactly why one fifth of this Planet is British no more.

Yup, the fifth who were never ever real British citizens.

Click the image to open in full size.
Look! "" British citizens ""


Just by some light years, the British Empire was never ever the Roman Empire...

Trust me on this one.

How about the fact that cannibalism was a pastime of tribal warfare? It was normal for pregnant women to be impaled on stakes and baby brains would be ceremoniously removed as they were a particular delicacy. Yet we put a stop to it. Then there's thugee and the immolation of women at their husband's funeral etc.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:39 AM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangekyou View Post
Well wasn't sure whether it was kettle logic or not, so I wasn't sure how to reply.



I was simply providing my own response, to your loaded question

We seem to get by using alot of formal/informal fallacies dont we?

Your favourite seems to be argumentum verbosium, which I wont lie, I respect the way that you construct this method in your posts. Kudos to you, sir!
Nope; since you ask so nicely, my laconic contributions couldn't be any farther from verbosity, and no "guilt" has been "presumed" for you.

It's just that, aside from some pervasive compulsive Straw Man, fallaciously crying "fallacy" from the other side could admittedly seem as a valid alternative for anyone with so many fallacious skeletons in the own closet
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