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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #391

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Originally Posted by Bish View Post
Having concerns about over immigrantion in our country doesn't make us racist. And while we may have a past that is not something to be proud of, neither should we be ashamed of it and those of us who had nothing to do with it should not have to suffer.

I didn't ask for all those immigrants to come here, just as you didn't ask for the British to control your nation.
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Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
As an ex-colonial myself I would observe that British racism is alive and well, however it has mutated over the past thirty years or so. Those people who are from, say, South Asian, East Asian or Afro-Caribbean origin who have adopted British values, lifestyles and culture are regarded as totally British except by, perhaps, the mentally-ill members of the barking-mad fringe political groups. However, there are communities who have surrounded themselves with insularity. They speak a different language, demand "special" rights, engage in alien practies, set themselves as enemies of their host country, claim victimhood and show no desire to become "British". These groups have determined that they are in Britaiin, but not of Britain. Is there any wonder that there is disdain when so called community leaders, who can hardly talk English and are subsidised with tens of thousand of pounds of state money declare "jihad" against British soldiers returning from an unpopular conflict.
The general attitude to the Gurkhas can be seen by the revolt of the ordinary public against their short-shrift treatment by the Labour goovernment a few years ago-- where was the "racism" there?
Yes I agree with you. Having concern about the over immigration and Jihadis doesn't make anybody racist. However putting all the immigrants under one label seems little bit awakward to me.

As I said earlier during early 50s and 60s Indians came to england on British goverment's encouragement. As britain needed manpower to fill the shortage that occured after WW2. Same for the people who migrated to Britain to join the NHS. As thanks to the colonial legacy the standards for medical and paramedical training in India and britain were same so it was easy to recruit them for NHS. The Gurkhas are still protecting your country. So I don't think you or any other British person actually suffered because of them. It isn't just appropriate to put all the immigrants from subcontinent in same group and labelling them Jihadis.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #392

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
You are of course quite right and, imho, the work done by the Indians and other Empire troops should be highlighted. It's not often mentioned that Canadian, Indian and Australian regiments fought alongside the British in Afghanistan/South Africa/China/Burma etc. The Sikhs have an especially illustrious history.

The moustache was actually an Indian fashion too and for a while it was trendy to wear a turban.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

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indian style moustache

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Sikhs with captured Afghans at the infamous Khyber Pass
Thanks for the information and photographs. I wasn't aware about it.

As for the Sikhs you are absolutely right. Not only British empire but the present day India is in great debt to the Sikh soldiers. However unfortunately the Sikhs suffered a lot during Britsh empire and also in independent India. When dividing India and Pakistan everybody thought about Hindus and Muslim but nobody thought about Sikhs and drew the line through the very center of Sikh territory. The birthplace of Guru nanak is just accross the border. They can see it through the Indian border but can't go their.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:44 AM   #393

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Luckily not all of us feel like he does, Jinnit.
Yes I am very much aware of that fact. I have been to Britain and despite the cold weather people were very warm.

Btw codemning British raj doesn't mean condemning British people if thats what people think. British raj as a whole wasn't good for India. But the same statement can't be made for the British people (especially the middle and lower class). Indian history isn't complete withour mentioning the contribution of many individual british people. Madeleine Slade (aka Miraben) was popularly called Gandhi's british daughter. When Gandhi went to England in 1931 he received very warm welcome from the middle class despite the fact that his campaign against the British goods was prooving detrimental to the workers who worked in cotton mills in England. So the ordinary british people weren't bad but the British raj certainly was.

Some photographs and Videos from Gandhi's visit of England for the round table conferance in 1931.

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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
How about the fact that cannibalism was a pastime of tribal warfare? It was normal for pregnant women to be impaled on stakes and baby brains would be ceremoniously removed as they were a particular delicacy. Yet we put a stop to it. Then there's thugee and the immolation of women at their husband's funeral etc.
Please be aware that this is again (& again & again) just a blatant Nirvana fallacy.

Again, asking for impossible perfection from any nation or populations all around this Planet just not be considered as candidates for conquest, decimation, plundering, humiliation, enslavement, and the eventual negligent abandonment by any colonial power couldn't be any more fallacious to the Nth degree.

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(Sorry; you will have to imagine a portrait of Henry VIII here; my sincere apologies)
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Or would you consider the despotic administration of this precedent of Uncle Joe as any role model for this poor Planet?

Or alternatively, would you consider the nice status of his totalitarian kingdom as a good excuse for any alien conquest, decimation, plundering, humiliation, & enslavement, not to mention the eventual negligent abandonment?????
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Jinit View Post
Yes I am very much aware of that fact. I have been to Britain and despite the cold weather people were very warm.

Btw codemning British raj doesn't mean condemning British people if thats what people think. British raj as a whole wasn't good for India. But the same statement can't be made for the British people (especially the middle and lower class). Indian history isn't complete withour mentioning the contribution of many individual british people. Madeleine Slade (aka Miraben) was popularly called Gandhi's british daughter. When Gandhi went to England in 1931 he received very warm welcome from the middle class despite the fact that his campaign against the British goods was prooving detrimental to the workers who worked in cotton mills in England. So the ordinary british people weren't bad but the British raj certainly was.

Some photographs and Videos from Gandhi's visit of England for the round table conferance in 1931.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.


Gandhi visits the poor people of England in 1931 - Gandhi Video Footage - YouTube

Footage - Gandhi - 1931 September 12 - YouTube
Wow....this is beautiful....Gandhi is so iconic...if it was at all possible to travel in the past.... my wish would be to meet him.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 12:04 PM   #396

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
. Then there's thugee and the immolation of women at their husband's funeral etc.
The Sati tradition was already banned in India during Mughal empire. And During British raj it was banned due to the efforts of Hindu social reforemers particularly
Raja_Rammohan_Roy Raja_Rammohan_Roy
.

As for the Thugee it was another product of colonial imagination due to their incomplete knowledge of the India. Recent investigations suggest that Thugees weren't any special case. They were just like the highwaymen common in Britain at the time. The whole Thugee thing was very much exaggerated.

The Strangled Traveler: Colonial Imaginings and the Thugs of India: Martine van Woerkens, Catherine Tihanyi: 9780226850863: Amazon.com: Books
The Strangled Traveler: Colonial Imaginings and the Thugs of India: Martine van Woerkens, Catherine Tihanyi: 9780226850863: Amazon.com: Books


Btw Thugee wasn't the only misconception prevealent among the Europeans. My most favourite is the Jaggernaut

A British View of India — Jagannatha Puri — Cultural Cataracts

Quote:
How about the fact that cannibalism was a pastime of tribal warfare?
If you are reffering to the Naga people and their tradition of head haunting then It was the American missionaries who dared to go into their terrritory and covinced them to stop the practice. Althaugh one can't deny the fact britishers also developed the area after they took control of it.

Last edited by Jinit; November 7th, 2012 at 12:56 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 12:12 PM   #397

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Please be aware that this is again (& again & again) just a blatant Nirvana fallacy.
Howso? The aforesaid Cannibalism/headhunting/eating baby brains being replaced with law, order and peace seems like a good trade. Naturally it isn't black and white, but the stopping of the aforementioned practices has got to be a good thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Again, asking for impossible perfection from any nation or populations all around this Planet just not be considered as candidates for conquest, decimation, plundering, humiliation, enslavement, and the eventual negligent abandonment by any colonial power couldn't be any more fallacious to the Nth degree.

Humiliation and enslavement weren't standard across the empire, there were many willing participants. Incidentally, after the abolition of slavery it was never a government policy to enslave others. Abandoning them is hardly accurate either. Government institutions were implemented in many areas, yet we were forced out due to Self Determination and nationalism, why stay if you're not wanted?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
-------------------------------------------------------------------
(Sorry; you will have to imagine a portrait of Henry VIII here; my sincere apologies)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Or would you consider the despotic administration of this precedent of Uncle Joe as any role model for this poor Planet?
As aforesaid, Uncle Joe was responsible for 20thC warcrimes, we didn't send millions of people off to the gulag. There were concentration camps in SA but in the 1800s our own army was decimated by poor living conditions in the Crimean War with thousands dying. That's the reality of 19thC life and logistics.


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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Or alternatively, would you consider the nice status of his totalitarian kingdom as a good excuse for any alien conquest, decimation, plundering, humiliation, & enslavement, not to mention the eventual negligent abandonment?????

Soviet Russia is hardly comparable to the British Empire. If what you said had truth then Ghandi would not have got as far as London.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #398

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Nope; since you ask so nicely, my laconic contributions couldn't be any farther from verbosity, and no "guilt" has been "presumed" for you.
The colourful language you use in constructing your arguments, could be construed that way. That aside, I think they are wonderfully constructed, so no negative comments here

Quote:
It's just that, aside from some pervasive compulsive Straw Man, fallaciously crying "fallacy" from the other side could admittedly seem as a valid alternative for anyone with so many fallacious skeletons in the own closet
It seems to to be hard to not use a fallacy of somekind these days

That said, we both need to turn away from our skeletons
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Old November 7th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Howso? The aforesaid Cannibalism/headhunting/eating baby brains being replaced with law, order and peace seems like a good trade. Naturally it isn't black and white, but the stopping of the aforementioned practices has got to be a good thing.






Humiliation and enslavement weren't standard across the empire, there were many willing participants. Incidentally, after the abolition of slavery it was never a government policy to enslave others. Abandoning them is hardly accurate either. Government institutions were implemented in many areas, yet we were forced out due to Self Determination and nationalism, why stay if you're not wanted?




As aforesaid, Uncle Joe was responsible for 20thC warcrimes, we didn't send millions of people off to the gulag. There were concentration camps in SA but in the 1800s our own army was decimated by poor living conditions in the Crimean War with thousands dying. That's the reality of 19thC life and logistics.





Soviet Russia is hardly comparable to the British Empire. If what you said had truth then Ghandi would not have got as far as London.
The ostensible level of unfounded fantastic nationalistic idealization of the brutal colonial regimes (of any colonial power) frankly never ceases to amaze me.

Nope...
... as we have already discussed in some detail about the Australian Aboriginal Nations...
(and as it was duly documented with some authoritative sources)
... No level of potential good intentions involved in the utter distortion of the local native practices according to the discriminatory standards of the invading conquerors could have even remotely compensated for the well-attested genocidal practices described there.

On the other hand, you do remember that slavery was allowed in the British protectorate of Bhutan as late as 1958, right?

I honestly could not even remotely imagine which may be your idea of any "non-humiliating" conquest..
Maybe the Germans in the Channel Islands 1940-1945???

Just for the sake of any Grammar Nazis here, I'm naturally using the term "enslavement" here as the equivalent of compulsory forced labor imposed over any conquered native population.
This is a regular commonplace use of the term, as anyone could easily verify.

At the risk of overstating the obvious, such systematic practice is inherent to basically any colonial system, virtually by definition.
Othwerwise, why on Earth would any colonial master like to waste the own blood & resources in the conquest any native population to begin with?
Not exactly rocket science, you know.

That's exactly why, amazing as it may sound, the British Empire as a whole was a laboral Gulag for one fifth of this Planet.

(Yup, analogous to so many other Colonial Masters over some other significant portions of this Planet)

As you have previously so rightly pointed out yourself in this very thread, nobody expected the British (or any other Colonial Master, for that matter) to do it for free...
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Old November 7th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #400
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The colourful language you use in constructing your arguments, could be construed that way. That aside, I think they are wonderfully constructed, so no negative comments here



It seems to to be hard to not use a fallacy of somekind these days

That said, we both need to turn away from our skeletons
Talk for yourself.
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