No sources for Russian nobles? - Historum

**Earl_of_Rochester** · November 12th, 2012, 05:46 AM

I was listening to this in my car earlier:

BBC Radio 4 - Book of the Week, Former People, Episode 1

Quote:

Episode 1
Former People Episode 1 of 5
AVAILABILITY:7 DAYS LEFT TO LISTEN
Duration: 15 minutes
First broadcast: Monday 12 November 2012

From the last days of the monarchy to the Red Terror of the Bolshevik Revolution and then Stalin's 'Operation Former People', the hundreds of thousands of families who formed the Russian nobility were subjected to a series of bloodthirsty purges.

This disparate group of people ranged from the entrenched monarchists of the old tsarist regime to the impoverished rural nobility who struggled to make a living out of their lands.

Some of these nobles were in favour of change and supported the revolution but very few families escaped without at least one member experiencing imprisonment, exile, forced labour or execution. Palaces were looted and estates burned as the enemies of the new Soviet state were made to pay over and over for their centuries of glittering privilege.

Drawing on meticulous research including letters and diaries from the period Douglas Smith brings to life the tiny human details of this extraordinary and tumultuous time.

Episode 1 of 5:
In the late 19th century, Russia was still very much a peasant and a feudal society ruled over by the decrees of one man. But this was a country racing towards industrialisation and the people's clamour for change could not be ignored.

Read by Robert Powell

Available via radio downloader too.

So, the Russian revolution was more bloody than the French and there's an absence of records from the nobles?

-EoR

**arras** · November 12th, 2012, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester

So, the Russian revolution was more bloody than the French and there's an absence of records from the nobles?

It is difficult to say because there are no reliable estimates for French revolution and there is question about definition of Russian revolution. There in fact were two revolutions. One which brought down monarchy and established republic and second Bolshevik one. And then there was civil war and intervention which followed.

If you consider only revolution itself without following civil war and intervention than Russian revolution probably was not more bloody than French revolution.

gladders · November 14th, 2012, 06:08 AM

Bear in mind that unlike the French Revolution, which ended up being crushed and replaced with the old regime, the Russian Revolution endured for 70 years and was replaced by a different regime not sympathetic to the Tsars either. They have been reluctant to release records on the period.

Additionally the Russian diapora went everywhere, if they survived, with barely anything but the shirts on their backs in most cases.

Putzi · November 14th, 2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arras

It is difficult to say because there are no reliable estimates for French revolution and there is question about definition of Russian revolution. There in fact were two revolutions. One which brought down monarchy and established republic and second Bolshevik one. And then there was civil war and intervention which followed.

One could argue there were three of them actually. The first one happened between 1905 and 1907 years, it was not quite resultative yet it costs us much more victims than February ("bourgeois") Revolution or October Revolution. Though, obviously, it bleaks in comparison with Civil War and Intervention (oh, those lovely international "peacekeepers").

And I'm so tired of all those scamworks of Stalin's paranoia among these boards. Believe it or not, but power struggle was quite real here all the way from 20s to 30s, and it's not like Civil War didn't left any "legacy" either. One could even argue that if there were not purges, SU would rather collapse against Nazi invasion, despite how it's common thinking here that Stalin "destroyed" Red Army in the process.

As for Russian nobles, pretty big part of them ended on Red side in the course of Civil war / Intervention, some of them became victims of White Terror. More specifically, ex-Tsarist military officers were more common to Red Army than White Army. And no, they were not all repressed by Stalin :P even though their efforts and sacrifices were not being taught about too much (due to obvious idealogical reasons).

Putzi · November 14th, 2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gladders

the Russian Revolution endured for 70 years and was replaced by a different regime not sympathetic to the Tsars either.

Huh?

Our current elites are very fond of final period of tsarist Russia. "The Russia which we lost" is almost official slogan of our "creative intelligentsia" and liberal wing of the government. In fact, there are many similarities between now and that period of our history. Starting from having no real independence at all or how the big part of the GDP is concentrated in very few hands and ending with those clown shows held in Duma and the rebirth of religious institutions everywhere and ethnic nationalism in certain regions. The main difference is that modern Russia is not rural country and that there is no class exploited to the same extent as it was in the end of XIX century.

To add metaphysics to all of this, there is quite striking resemblance between Medvedev himself and Nicholas II.

**bartieboy** · November 14th, 2012, 02:06 PM

Well just recently I had a very interesting book on this subject in my hands, I'll see if I can find it back in the bookstore and give you the name of it.

What I can tell you is that Russians had a very lively community in Paris during the inter war years. I wonder how they got trough the second world war.

Putzi · November 14th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bartieboy

What I can tell you is that Russians had a very lively community in Paris during the inter war years. I wonder how they got trough the second world war.

Some of them were fighting in Resistance or helping Soviet soldiers on their escape from death camps. Some of them were murdered by Nazis, as result of their doings.

Some of white emigration (not everyone of emigrants were "white", mind you) were fighting on Nazi side. This is to show you how much of "patriots" of Russia some of those in fact were.

**Earl_of_Rochester** · November 14th, 2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bartieboy

Well just recently I had a very interesting book on this subject in my hands, I'll see if I can find it back in the bookstore and give you the name of it.

What I can tell you is that Russians had a very lively community in Paris during the inter war years. I wonder how they got trough the second world war.

The programme is actually about a book "former people", perhaps that was the one you were looking at?

Episode 2 was on Tuesday.

BBC Radio 4 - Book of the Week, Former People, Episode 2

Quote:

Episode 2
Former People Episode 2 of 5
AVAILABILITY:6 DAYS LEFT TO LISTEN
Duration: 15 minutes
First broadcast: Tuesday 13 November 2012

From the last days of the monarchy to the Red Terror of the Bolshevik Revolution and then Stalin's 'Operation Former People' the hundreds of thousands of families who formed the Russian nobility were subjected to a series of bloodthirsty purges.

This disparate group of people ranged from the entrenched monarchists of the old Tsarist regime to the impoverished rural nobility who struggled to make a living out of their lands.

Some of these nobles were in favour of change and supported the revolution but very few families escaped without at least one member experiencing imprisonment, exile, forced labour or execution. Palaces were looted and estates burned as the enemies of the new soviet state were made to pay over and over for their centuries of glittering privilege.

Drawing on meticulous research including letters and diaries from the period Douglas Smith brings to life the tiny human details of this extraordinary and tumultuous time.

Episode 2 of 5
The dying days of the Tsarist Empire were both glittering and desperate as the aristocracy partied their way into history, the workers demanded a fair wage and violence erupted both at home and abroad.

Read by Robert Powell
Abridged and produced by Jill Waters
A Waters Company production for BBC Radio 4.

If you can't access the programme you can download it via radio downloader.

http://www.nerdoftheherd.com/tools/radiodld/

Once it's installed click on the BBC Radio button

Screen will show Programmes A-Z, click on B.

Scroll down and click on page 2, near the bottom of page 2, programme 85 is Book of the Week.

There's loads of other history stuff around on there too.