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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:06 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by arras View Post
This I agree. Words are not random, they have deep meaning. Language reflect way we think.


Which ones?

Mainly the problem that people have severe problems on both sides coming to a common identity. There are ton's of afro europeans who's families have been living in europe since ww2 that still complain there not accepted as part of their country, due to the view that being british or french etc, is more important than anything else.
This might be true on very superficial political level, connected to high politics, mainstream media and political correctness. Which is largely becoming to be populary perceived as something absurd and ridiculous in Europe. Term "political correctness" became purely negative in context of discussion in Europe.
Being PC is obviously a joke, however having a correct narrative which assumed to be the same thing is entirely different.
On the normal cultural and social level, Europeans are very proud of their heritage, thing is in most cases Europeanism is demonstrated via individual national heritages. There simply does not exist some strong common European identity. We are Slovaks, Magyars, Poles, French, Italians, Swedes first, only then we are Europeans. That is why I say Europe will not be turned in to some "multicultural semi-national state". EU will always stay to be purely political project, there is no chance it will become cultural and ethnic.
Your view of things is very european, and it's hard to explain my viewpoint when it's so very different.

If you look at canada and the states, were defined far more by regionalism east vs west etc, than by the border. Largely in part to us sharing a language.

When I goto toronto or talk to american's, the one thing that seems to be my culture is being white english speakers(whatever that means). As unpopular as it is to admit, it's pretty much a fact from my experience.

So I think it's entirely likely that if english continues to be the main language of europe this will also be the case. I've always found it strange that scandivians despite having a similar languages, will talk in english.

There is growth in a pan european identity, but who knows how this will develop in the future.

Either way immigrants will become 2nd 3nd and fourth generation europeans very soon.

So I think it's very likely they will be seen as either part of the national identity or even the continental identity almost as a fact.

Last edited by Terranovan; November 13th, 2012 at 05:12 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:27 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Terranovan View Post
Your view of things is very european, and it's hard to explain my viewpoint when it's so very different.

If you look at canada and the states, were defined far more by regionalism east vs west etc, than by the border. Largely in part to us sharing a language.

When I goto toronto or talk to american's, the one thing that seems to be my culture is being white english speakers(whatever that means). As unpopular as it is to admit, it's pretty much a fact from my experience.

So I think it's entirely likely that if english continues to be the main language of europe this will also be the case. I've always found it strange that scandivians despite having a similar languages, will talk in english.

There is growth in a pan european identity, but who knows how this will develop in the future.

Either way immigrants will become 2nd 3nd and fourth generation europeans very soon.

So I think it's very likely they will be seen as either part of the national identity or even the continental identity almost as a fact.
Just some comments:

I believe, most people from Europe call themselves Swedes, Danes etc when outside Europe, not Europeans. Only when Europe becomes one country, they will perhaps by time call themselves Europeans.

Scandinavians normally talk to each other in their own language, which is understandable in most cases in Denmark, Sweden and Norway. I have never needed to speak English in Denmark or Norway.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:40 AM   #23

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Originally Posted by Terranovan View Post
Mainly the problem that people have severe problems on both sides coming to a common identity. There are ton's of afro europeans who's families have been living in europe since ww2 that still complain there not accepted as part of their country, due to the view that being british or french etc, is more important than anything else.
Nobody perceives African immigrants and their descendants as Europeans. They are living in Europe and so they are citizens of European countries. But nobody thinks they are Europeans in ethnic sense. First of all they themselves do not view themselves as ethnic Europeans. They still are Africans or black.

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Originally Posted by Terranovan View Post
Being PC is obviously a joke, however having a correct narrative which assumed to be the same thing is entirely different.
May be it is me not been native speaker but I do not understand you. How can correct narrative and PC be same thing and entirely different?

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Originally Posted by Terranovan View Post
Your view of things is very european, and it's hard to explain my viewpoint when it's so very different.
But you were asking about situation in Europe And that is what I answered. There is no problem with cultural/ethnic identities in Europe. Now I imagine that in emigrant mixed societies there might be problems with it. But not in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Terranovan View Post
If you look at canada and the states, were defined far more by regionalism east vs west etc, than by the border. Largely in part to us sharing a language.

When I goto toronto or talk to american's, the one thing that seems to be my culture is being white english speakers(whatever that means). As unpopular as it is to admit, it's pretty much a fact from my experience.

So I think it's entirely likely that if english continues to be the main language of europe this will also be the case. I've always found it strange that scandivians despite having a similar languages, will talk in english.
I do not have experience with situation in North America so I have no opinion about it. You probably know much more about it than me.

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There is growth in a pan european identity, but who knows how this will develop in the future.
Not quit. You have to understand that picture you see about Europe in mainstream media does not necessarily have to correspond with reality. There is push for some cultural unification in centres of EU promoted by Western European political and economic elites. But European politics and media, especially on EU level are becoming more and more disconnected from reality in European countries themselves. I know nobody who have read Lisbon treaty (basically EU constitution). Not even Slovak politicians who ratified it or journalists who were writing about it. Only about 20% of citizens turns up at elections to EU parliament and 99% of people do not know who was elected in to EU parliament and thus represent Slovaks there.

Pan-European identity is identity of group of very thin EU elite and some EU bureaucrats serving that elite and nobody else besides.

Not even immigrants and their descendants identify themselves with this pan-european identity, they still have their own original identities of Turks, Pakistanis, Indians, Algerians or Tunisians.

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Originally Posted by Terranovan View Post
Either way immigrants will become 2nd 3nd and fourth generation europeans very soon.

So I think it's very likely they will be seen as either part of the national identity or even the continental identity almost as a fact.
There already are 2nd and 3nd generations of immigrants and they keep their own immigrant identities. You can see it with Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Pakistanis in England, Chinese all over the place.

There is community of Gypsies which live in Europe for centuries and they did not merged with native Europeans. Same with Jews.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #24

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Nobody perceives African immigrants and their descendants as Europeans. They are living in Europe and so they are citizens of European countries. But nobody thinks they are Europeans in ethnic sense. First of all they themselves do not view themselves as ethnic Europeans. They still are Africans or black.
I don't know how many people would think themselves as "ethnic" Europeans. Also Europe is beyond geography I think. There are Greeks from Asia Minor but they are Europeans. Cyprus is a Middle Eastern island but part of the EU. So Africans could be Europeans if they feel as such. But probably they would identify with the nation that hosted them.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:47 AM   #25
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This is all about the intellectual concept 'race', which only a few fanatics actually care about. Our real traditions are always, in experience, local.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:54 AM   #26

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I don't know how many people would think themselves as "ethnic" Europeans. Also Europe is beyond geography I think. There are Greeks from Asia Minor but they are Europeans. Cyprus is a Middle Eastern island but part of the EU. So Africans could be Europeans if they feel as such. But probably they would identify with the nation that hosted them.
I agree, that is why I say Europeans in Europe (and surrounding) identify themselves as Europeans foremost via their national identities: Greeks, French, Swedes, Serbs, etc. And while ethnic and racial identities might have names derived from geography, they are not geographic in nature.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:59 AM   #27
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Nobody perceives African immigrants and their descendants as Europeans. They are living in Europe and so they are citizens of European countries. But nobody thinks they are Europeans in ethnic sense. First of all they themselves do not view themselves as ethnic Europeans. They still are Africans or black.
This is a european view and I do believe it's a problem again because on the ways in which europe polarizes identity.

May be it is me not been native speaker but I do not understand you. How can correct narrative and PC be same thing and entirely different?
Being PC, is entirely superficial by definition. By correct narrative I simply mean that poor terminology, can lead people down false paths.

But you were asking about situation in Europe And that is what I answered. There is no problem with cultural/ethnic identities in Europe. Now I imagine that in emigrant mixed societies there might be problems with it. But not in Europe.
Oh I agree, I asked because I'm trying to understand your viewpoint through a bottleneck.


I do not have experience with situation in North America so I have no opinion about it. You probably know much more about it than me.
Meh your atleast partially absorbed into american culture as I am european it is a global village after all.

Not quit. You have to understand that picture you see about Europe in mainstream media does not necessarily have to correspond with reality. There is push for some cultural unification in centres of EU promoted by Western European political and economic elites. But European politics and media, especially on EU level are becoming more and more disconnected from reality in European countries themselves. I know nobody who have read Lisbon treaty (basically EU constitution). Not even Slovak politicians who ratified it or journalists who were writing about it. Only about 20% of citizens turns up at elections to EU parliament and 99% of people do not know who was elected in to EU parliament and thus represent Slovaks there.
Oh I entirely agree that the politics are around it are messed up. But I think the common feelings of culture is a response to force, and it's not an ingrained part of europe. The EU was forcing things which caused people to have a knee jerk reaction to fight for personal freedom, culture has been caught in the crossfire. I don't believe this is a natural reaction, and I think will soften in the future or at least be redefined.
Pan-European identity is identity of group of very thin EU elite and some EU bureaucrats serving that elite and nobody else besides.
Meh in all my experience with europeans and people in general this isn't entirely true. People take sides when there is conflict. The conflict in europe isn't with other nationalities but with the academics that tend to condescend.

Not even immigrants and their descendants identify themselves with this pan-european identity, they still have their own original identities of Turks, Pakistanis, Indians, Algerians or Tunisians.


There already are 2nd and 3nd generations of immigrants and they keep their own immigrant identities. You can see it with Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Pakistanis in England, Chinese all over the place.

There is community of Gypsies which live in Europe for centuries and they did not merged with native Europeans. Same with Jews.
Again what you describe in the last three paragraphs is a very european thing. I strongly believe europe's view on nationality will have to adapt to increasing immigration.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 06:04 AM   #28
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This is all about the intellectual concept 'race', which only a few fanatics actually care about. Our real traditions are always, in experience, local.
Meh I'll agree this concept is going in that direction because people only comment on what they know.

However I think it's important to understand that the whole thread is based on the premise that race as the way we know it, will change in the very near future. Also I think it's important to understand that most people here are very caught up in a european view of race, again because its what people know.

It's a view that is trapped in european history.

However if you look to places like brazil, singapore, the carribean, or even parts of africa you'll understand that where were headed race as we know it won't make sense.

China soon will need to start large scale immigration, non hispanic whites in the us is declining rapidly in the states.

Europe's best hope to avoid economic stagnation in immigration.

The world is changing so I really believe what I'm talking about is unavoidable.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:19 AM   #29
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Foreigners of any color and culture will always be foreigners for any nation, especially illegally migrating foreigners during economic bad times.

That might be xenophobia (depending on the degree) but racism is not necessarily implied.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:30 AM   #30
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Foreigners of any color and culture will always be foreigners for any nation, especially illegally migrating foreigners during economic bad times.

That might be xenophobia (depending on the degree) but racism is not necessarily implied.
I find the Somalis in Cardiff much more like us than the white settlers buying up second homes in Gwynedd, and the Italians much less foreign than the English. One of our mates in the RAF was Ng Wing Bo, from Fidler's Elbow. We don't like bossy bullies: our own people come in all sorts.
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