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Old November 15th, 2012, 12:48 PM   #1

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Linguistics is the new black for nationalism


Back in the 30s and 40s the Nazis had discovered the world of genetics, which they were abusing constantly. Except from the fact that the field was terribly immature at that time, people were fed with the idea of the aryan race etc. At this time we know pretty well, that Roma people are Aryans and not Goebbels, Hitler and their friends.

Today, I see constant abuse of the field of linguistics. Every month we will read on this forum about various "breakthroughs" that prove who has it bigger in terms of language presence. Sumerian, Basque, Minoan, Etruscan, Ancient Alien and any other unclassified language is being raped in the name of chauvinism. I myself have been several times in the position to explain why people should drop every single BS they read here and there.

Is it only me, seeing this rapid spread of language abuse? Is it becoming a similar trend like the genetics back in the 30s-40s?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #2

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas View Post
Back in the 30s and 40s the Nazis had discovered the world of genetics, which they were abusing constantly. Except from the fact that the field was terribly immature at that time, people were fed with the idea of the aryan race etc. At this time we know pretty well, that Roma people are Aryans and not Goebbels, Hitler and their friends.

Today, I see constant abuse of the field of linguistics. Every month we will read on this forum about various "breakthroughs" that prove who has it bigger in terms of language presence. Sumerian, Basque, Minoan, Etruscan, Ancient Alien and any other unclassified language is being raped in the name of chauvinism. I myself have been several times in the position to explain why people should drop every single BS they read here and there.

Is it only me, seeing this rapid spread of language abuse? Is it becoming a similar trend like the genetics back in the 30s-40s?
do you mean like x language was found to be used by ancient mesopotamians so it is a very ancient and rooted language?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #3

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It's not just you. People all over keep doing this by finding a handful of words (at most) that sound vaguely similar to ones from another language with similar meanings and insist they are related. We all know the only language where this is actually the case is with Mayan, which English is clearly derived from as the English word for one sounds suspiciously to the Mayan "hun", meaning one.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:07 PM   #4

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do you mean like x language was found to be used by ancient mesopotamians so it is a very ancient and rooted language?
Yeah, of course! The older the better! The better the bigger...
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Old November 15th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #5

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Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
It's not just you. People all over keep doing this by finding a handful of words (at most) that sound vaguely similar to ones from another language with similar meanings and insist they are related. We all know the only language where this is actually the case is with Mayan, which English is clearly derived from as the English word for one sounds suspiciously to the Mayan "hun", meaning one.
Well, the same mistake was actually done by people who were genuinely trying to study languages, back in the 19th century. Apparently, in all languages you will find nostratic words as they are called. However, comparing is not enough. Those concepts usually fail in grammar for example. What I cannot understand is, why some people who really get interested by an ideas they read, don't try to understand what they read. I mean, if someone told me Mayan is Swedish or whatever, I would try to verify it somehow. However, even if I pull my hair out, I would not be able to see an obvious similarity. Next step is to do a quick google search...If the only source are some blogs, while tons of books of google books tell you differently, then something is definitely wrong.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #6

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At first I thought you were talking about linguistics and black nationalism.

We've seen this with Turkish a number of times on the board, are there other groups that do this? Because of the remote origins of Turkish and 19th century attempts to connect it to other languages I wondered if that caused some of these theories.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #7

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I think that the latest historical breakthroughs in "The Ethnicity of Sumerians" thread might have fuelled your thoughts, Midas. Keep in mind, that there was nothing but the history about Russians themselves for quite a long time and actually still is. The others had been completely deprived of studying and discovering their own history unless we are talking about some pretty short parts concerning "voluntary joining to Russia" and other things picturing how all those annexations had made improving and positive effects. The new schools are popped up everywhere. Unfortunately, even very profound and argumentative denunciation of Russian version of events quite often are not making the new version more reliable. Theoretically, it should take some time to shape those school in more mature stage. Practically, they are merely radicalising due constant Russian pressure. In other words, "the critical part" of those researches are quite interesting good, the "creative" ones ("who we really are!") are the same bad.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 09:53 AM   #8
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Soviet linguists and ethnologists were notorious for making up BS connections with linguistics between modern and ancient groups. as i already noted many times, the soviet conference at tashkent in 1921 was instrumental for attaching the false label of "uyghur" to the eastern turki people of the tarim basin and taranchis in ili, whilst the real descendants of the uyghurs were the yugur. I don't know if there were any other fake ethnic groups created by the soviets at that conference because I have not studied it in depth.

This is why i think soviet academics is trash. If anyone has access to russian documents relating to the tashkent conference or fake ethnic groups created by the soviets they should post it here.

The entire modern "uyghur" nationalist revisionist history propagated by the world uyghur congress and rebiya kadeer are copied and pasted from soviet books. They claim that "uyghurs" lived in xinjiang for thousands of years, which is a massive joke. Their hero Ehmetjan Qasim was a member of the soviet communist party and puppet of stalin, but every time the "uyghurs" tell other muslims and americans about "evil chinese occupiers", they somehow forget their soviet copy and paste history and Ehmetjan Qasimov's communist party membership, or that the Second East Turkestan Republic was a soviet puppet state, or that they were backed by the Red Army in their revolt against China.

Last edited by deke; November 16th, 2012 at 10:04 AM.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 10:14 AM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by antocya View Post
At first I thought you were talking about linguistics and black nationalism.

We've seen this with Turkish a number of times on the board, are there other groups that do this? Because of the remote origins of Turkish and 19th century attempts to connect it to other languages I wondered if that caused some of these theories.
Turkish certainly seems to be the most prominent these days, but it's not the only one. There's one infamous writer who claims that every prominent ancient civilization was African and that their modern languages were derived from African languages.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 11:30 AM   #10

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Originally Posted by Lors View Post
I think that the latest historical breakthroughs in "The Ethnicity of Sumerians" thread might have fuelled your thoughts, Midas.
No, not at all. My contribution there was very specific, so you can say I know that case very well. Do you think I just guessed that thing about the Russian academy of sciences rejecting his work?

I have been thinking for 20 days now to open such a thread, but it has been postponed from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lors View Post
Keep in mind, that there was nothing but the history about Russians themselves for quite a long time and actually still is. The others had been completely deprived of studying and discovering their own history unless we are talking about some pretty short parts concerning "voluntary joining to Russia" and other things picturing how all those annexations had made improving and positive effects. The new schools are popped up everywhere. Unfortunately, even very profound and argumentative denunciation of Russian version of events quite often are not making the new version more reliable. Theoretically, it should take some time to shape those school in more mature stage. Practically, they are merely radicalising due constant Russian pressure. In other words, "the critical part" of those researches are quite interesting good, the "creative" ones ("who we really are!") are the same bad.
I understand very well what you mean. However, this is seen a bit everywhere. From America, to Europe, to Korea. What surprises me though is the unwillingness of people to double check, before making bold statements. Back in the 40s they didn't have internet to search for scientific papers. If SCIENCE said so, you should better sh#% the @!& up and accept it. Today, it is really in your hands whether you're dreaming or are in the real world.

Back to those former USSR countries though...There is a lot of good things going on right now. Especially in the Caucasus area which was until recently an uncharted territory, many good local and Russian scholars have shined and revealed us some languages before they die out.
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