Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:43 PM   #71
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koba View Post
Statistics show- 29% of Soviet military personnel had a higher education before the repressions. After them, the number became 38%. By 1941, the number had risen to 52%. Note that for the decade before the repressions, the number had remained stagnant at around 20-30%.

.
So all those generals were shot for not having gone to college.
betgo is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:37 PM   #72

Koba's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 172

No, a total of 440 military personnel were executed for attempting a military coup, led by Tukhachevsky, against the Soviet leadership. But I guess, since Stalin is of course insane and a psychopath, he simply made all this up and killed them for no reason whatsoever.
Koba is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 09:01 PM   #73
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koba View Post
No, a total of 440 military personnel were executed for attempting a military coup, led by Tukhachevsky, against the Soviet leadership. But I guess, since Stalin is of course insane and a psychopath, he simply made all this up and killed them for no reason whatsoever.
You are looking at Communist propaganda from some official sources.
betgo is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 09:10 PM   #74

Koba's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 172

Yes. Anti-Sovietism is a religion, which puts arbitrary "estimates" of "historians" above actual archival data by the NKVD, a closed organization which had no reason to lie to itself to make itself look less evil to itself. In the eyes of an anti-Soviet true believer, any facts that paint the Soviet period in a non-hellish light as a period which did not "butcher" "tens of millions" of its own people is obviously "propaganda", even if they are based on archival evidence. Why? Because the USSR was pure evil. And why was the USSR pure evil? Because it obviously "butchered" "tens of millions" of its own people. Circular logic is a typical example of irrational psuedo-religious behavior.

Yuri Zhukov, a famous Russian historian, said he went into the archives an anti-Stalinist and came out a Stalinist. Considering Western anti-Soviet psuedo-historians completely ignore facts, archives, and data, and simply make up absurd falsehoods and proceed to quote each other ad nausem as "evidence", this is not surprising.
Koba is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 09:28 PM   #75
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koba View Post
No, a total of 440 military personnel were executed for attempting a military coup, led by Tukhachevsky, against the Soviet leadership. But I guess, since Stalin is of course insane and a psychopath, he simply made all this up and killed them for no reason whatsoever.
Mikhail_Tukhachevsky Mikhail_Tukhachevsky

Tukhachevsky and his codefendents were declared innocent by the Soviet Union in 1957. Tukhachevsky was on a 1963 Soviet postage stamp.

The Soviet Union acknowledged the Stalinist terror under Kruschev. You are arguing that 440 military personnel were executed for a real military coup attempt rather than as part of Stalin's purge of the military.
betgo is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 09:48 PM   #76

Koba's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 172

Yes, Kruschev wanted to discredit Stalin to cement his own rule, including rehabilitating victims of the repressions. The facts are that nobody really knows if Tukhachevsky was guilty or not- people close to the proceedings, like Molotov, allege he was planning a coup. I trust them more than the "speculations" of Western "historians".

There are many rumors and speculations about the Tukhachevsky Affair. In the absence of primary sources, speculations of memoirists and politicians have variously accused Hitler and Stalin of framing Tukhachevsky. Others have suggested that the generals were actually plotting a coup against Stalin, who beat them to the punch. With no credible sources and so many contradictory rumors, the entire affair must remain mysterious.
Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 167

CHUEV: He [Tukhachevsky] was accused of being a German agent.
MOLOTOV: He hurried with plans for a coup. Both Krestinsky and Rosengoltz testified to that. It makes sense. He feared he was at the point of being arrested, and he could no longer put things off. And there was no one else he could rely on except the Germans. This sequence of events is plausible.
I consider Tukhachevsky a most dangerous conspirator in the military who was caught only at the last minute. Had he not been apprehended, the consequences could have been catastrophic. He was most popular in the army.
Did everyone who was charged or executed take part in the conspiracy hatched by Tukhachevsky? Some were certainly involved....
But as to whether Tukhachevsky and his group in the military were connected with Trotskyists and rightists and were preparing a coup, there is no doubt.
Chuev, Feliks. Molotov Remembers. Chicago: I. R. Dee, 1993, p. 280


But quite a few non-Stalinist sources maintain that the generals did indeed plan a coup d'etat and did this from their own motives, and on their own initiative, not in contact with any foreign power. The main part of the coup was to be a palace revolt, following an assault on the headquarters of the GPU and culminating in Stalin's assassination. Tukhachevsky was regarded as the leader of the conspiracy. A man of military genius, the real modernizer of the Red Army, surrounded by the glory of his feats in the civil war, he was the army's favorite, and was indeed the only man among all the military leaders of that time who showed a resemblance to the original Bonaparte and could have played the Russian First Consul. Generals Yakir, commander of Leningrad, Uborevitch, commander of the western military district, Kork, commander of Moscow's Military Academy, Primakov, Budienny's deputy in the command of the cavalry, Gamarnik, the chief Political Commissar of the army who presently committed suicide, and other officers were supposed to have been in the plot. On May 1, 1937, Tukhachevsky stood at Stalin's side at the Lenin Mausoleum, reviewing the May Day parade. Eleven days later he was demoted. On June 12 the execution of Tukhachevsky and his friends was announced.
Deutscher, Isaac. Stalin; A Political Biography. New York: Oxford Univ. Press, 1967, p. 379

red-channel
Koba is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 01:19 AM   #77
Citizen
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: India
Posts: 13

Answering the original question:

The dumbest mistake made by Hitler was to be overconfident and open two fronts. Even if he had planned to open the eastern front, he should not have delayed it by six weeks or else, he SHOULD have been prepared for the Soviet winter.

In fact, Hitler should not have broken the Non-Aggression Pact in the first place. That way, he could have had Stalin as his ally and won the war. And seeing how anti-Communist Hitler was, he could have turned against the Soviet Union AFTER he had defeated Britain.

Hitler should not have declared war on the USA. That was perhaps one of the most stupid thing he did, besides not listening to his generals and his refusal to allow Generalfeldmarschall Friedrich Paulus to withdraw from an impossible situation in Stalingrad. The "No Retreat" Order.

Briefly, I would just say that THE greatest mistake in WW2 was by Hitler of being overconfident and egoistical.
historyhungry is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 01:51 AM   #78

General Winter's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: May 2012
From: In the Land of Russia where the Shadows lie
Posts: 568
Blog Entries: 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo View Post
You are looking at Communist propaganda from some official sources.
A helpfull tip for anticommies: remember, nothing from “Communists” can be trusted. Unless it somehow works in your favor, ala Khrushchev’s ‘Secret Speech’ from 1956, or anything Trotsky wrote :

Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo View Post

Tukhachevsky and his codefendents were declared innocent by the Soviet Union in 1957. Tukhachevsky was on a 1963 Soviet postage stamp.
And do not notice the contradiction, Mr. betgo !
General Winter is online now  
Old November 24th, 2012, 07:07 AM   #79
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,400

Whatever, thought it was generally accepted in the west and in the former Soviet Union that most of the senior officers in the Soviet Union were executed on trumped up charges. I guess it is possible that some very actually plotting against Stalin, but they were a potential threat to Stalin. Most of them were former revolutionaries or Czarist officers, and possibly not totally loyal.

I can understand why Stalin is respected now in the former Soviet Union, as he was in some ways a more effective leader than those who followed him. However, some of this is like denying the Hollocaust and other crimes of Hitler.
betgo is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 07:31 AM   #80

MrKap's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,242

It was betraying stalin.

If you take the Allies side... there was probably no mistake, as the USA's late entry into the war was most likely the most economically viable option.
MrKap is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

Tags
mistake, ww2


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nagasaki a mistake? dlf War and Military History 110 March 28th, 2014 02:20 AM
The greatest hint: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. sylla1 War and Military History 7 November 12th, 2012 07:38 PM
Hitlers great Mistake EMPORORK Speculative History 209 April 17th, 2012 10:37 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.