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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:12 AM   #61

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religion in ottoman empire has been used to exploit people as it is being used just the same by akp. the west realized this long time ago starting with the renaissance. they managed to implement secularism and look where they are now. ataturk was a smart man and he knew this was the way to develop. too bad that people after him failed to keep secularism.
and to see the symbolic link between arabic script and islam, let's look at some of the countries that use it today:

Click the image to open in full size.

see what i mean?

Last edited by infestÝr; December 5th, 2012 at 05:19 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:27 AM   #62

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Originally Posted by infestÝr View Post
religion in ottoman empire has been used to exploit people as it is being used just the same by akp. the west realized this long time ago starting with the renaissance. they managed to implement secularism and look where they are now. ataturk was a smart man and he knew this was the way to develop. too bad that people after him failed to keep secularism.
and to see the symbolic link between arabic script and islam, let's look at some of the countries that use it today:

Click the image to open in full size.

see what i mean?
Can't see anything dude...
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:31 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by infestÝr View Post
see what i mean?
The map is really informative infestor. Thanx a lot

I am not sure if this has been discussed in the thread. But can we draw similar parallels between Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia making a change in the favour of the Latin script?
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:34 AM   #64
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Can't see anything dude...
States who use Arabic script have a state religion (for the most part). EDIT; Furthermore, almost all the countries how have a majority Muslim population have a religious state.

Great map Infestor, really interesting to see the UK as ambiguous. Thanks for posting
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #65

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You know, Secularism or Islam, we may differ, but they're all tools. Secularism can be miapplied or misued just as Religion. A forced Secularism is just as worse as the Religious handicaps....

My believe is that an Islamic society that can be tailored to fit modernization needs...which is always a religious requirement as well !

Sometimes, that contrediction is clear to me....and this is felt in the Arab world not just in Turkey....that we see our glory days, the days we all proud of are under the banner of Islam ! but now we shy away from it....!

I tend to conclude that people's characteristcs is the main drive here....In the past, people have more clarity and motivation....cultural practices and changes is the actual reason behind backwardness and confusion in the Middle East.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:59 AM   #66

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That's interesting to know Efendi....

The vowels or consonants seems to be the most prevalent justifications for the change in linguistic point of view....I'm convinced with that....but didn't the Latin script itself was moderated to allow such particular feathure of Turkish ?! Will it be difficult to moderate/alter the Arabic scripture to accomodate the same ?
Turkish is very rich in consonant. Some vovels are expressed with letters Ų,Ł,ı, also ğ which lenghten the previous vovel. Even these additions arent enough. For example there are tree A vovel in Turkish. thick A, narrow a, thin A. Turkish isn't in %100 degree written as It is read.

Vovels are determinant in differenation of words. For example Hala(Aunt), and h‚l‚(still). The first is written with broad a, the second is with thin a. But when you write it in Arabic you cant differentiate them because they are written same.

Ottomans differentiate these kinds of words by written them in different figures. You not only learn the alphabet, but also learn how to write them so that you can understand If It is h‚l‚ or hala.

They could have went on Ottoman letters, but teaching latine alphabets was relativelly easier.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 06:11 AM   #67
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You know, Secularism or Islam, we may differ, but they're all tools. Secularism can be miapplied or misued just as Religion. A forced Secularism is just as worse as the Religious handicaps....
I disagree, secularism can be changed by the elected representatives whereas Islamic (or any other relgious) law cannot. It comes from God and to argue against this (in an non-secular-Islamic country) = death.

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My believe is that an Islamic society that can be tailored to fit modernization needs...which is always a religious requirement as well !
I disagree, it has only happened in Turkey. From what i hear from some Turkish posters this is even starting to change.

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Sometimes, that contrediction is clear to me....and this is felt in the Arab world not just in Turkey....that we see our glory days, the days we all proud of are under the banner of Islam ! but now we shy away from it....!
Please bear in mind that those glory days were preceded by conquest and subjection, effectively colonization of foreigners. I realize that times were different then but its still possible to argue that the Islamic conquests were colonization, as seen during the European colonisation between the 17th-19th century.

The knowledge of the ,Persians, Greeks, Indians and Egyptians (and many others) then gave rise to the Islamic glory days. Just as the natural resources of India (for the most part, and many others) gave rise to the glory days of Britain.

Be proud of the achievements of those great people, be proud of the system that allowed them to achieve that. From what i have read the ME at that time was more 'secular' than Europe

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I tend to conclude that people's characteristcs is the main drive here....In the past, people have more clarity and motivation....
Charity has never been bigger. Just look a the USA-style fundraiser events where billions of dollars are raised and given out...and not only given to people who happen to believe in the same God or live in the same country.

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cultural practices and changes is the actual reason behind backwardness and confusion in the Middle East.
From an outsiders perspective, the backwardness of the ME is largely due to the dictatorship style governments (lack of personal freedom) and state implementation of religious law, which came from a society about 1000 years ago, and so is un-surprising it conflicts with the world people are born into today - hence the confusion.

EDIT; This is completely off-topic, so perhaps a different thread would be the best place to continue this? Anyway i'll let you get back to discussing this topic
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Old December 5th, 2012, 06:14 AM   #68

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The map is really informative infestor. Thanx a lot

I am not sure if this has been discussed in the thread. But can we draw similar parallels between Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia making a change in the favour of the Latin script?
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States who use Arabic script have a state religion (for the most part). EDIT; Furthermore, almost all the countries how have a majority Muslim population have a religious state.

Great map Infestor, really interesting to see the UK as ambiguous. Thanks for posting
hehehe the credit should go to wikipedia as i stole the map from there

(look at denmark. it's the only country in europe with state religion goddamn royals! stealing our tax money)
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Old December 5th, 2012, 06:24 AM   #69

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(look at denmark. it's the only country in europe with state religion goddamn royals! stealing our tax money)
Yes, quite embarrassing, really.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 07:07 AM   #70

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I disagree, secularism can be changed by the elected representatives whereas Islamic (or any other relgious) law cannot. It comes from God and to argue against this (in an non-secular-Islamic country) = death.
Things may go different on the arena, a state could intervene into religion under banner of secularism. Forcing ladies to uncover their heads. banning religious symbols.

These are intervention and they are religious.

Secualarism could be used to mandate things.

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I disagree, it has only happened in Turkey. From what i hear from some Turkish posters this is even starting to change.
In Islam dominated country It is normal that Islam could be represented in the parlement, as Christianity is represented in countries like Germany.

Turks fear from their religion,they fear from their past, because It is how they were educated in the schools. Ottoman sharia condemned as backward, literature condemned because of Its noneturkish loan words by nationalist state.

They were frightened by giving example of Iran revolution, which has nothing to do with roots of Iran and our Ottoman past. Obviouslly has nothing to do with Turkey. No reason to fear that Turkey will turn nout to be a dictatorship of teocracy as she was in many many centuries ago.

They have to face and accept that It is Islamic country. AKP(Erdoğans party) is naturaly democratic outcome of this fact. This who we are, why not facing this?
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