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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:22 AM   #71

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Looks like Greece and Iceland also have a state religion.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Efendi View Post
Things may go different on the arena, a state could intervene into religion under banner of secularism. Forcing ladies to uncover their heads. banning religious symbols.

These are intervention and they are religious.

Secualarism could be used to mandate things.
Indeed it has in the past and continues to do so. For instance, in the UK recently the CoE has had a vote to admit women Bishops, which didn’t go through. Some have hinted that this breaks gender discrimination laws. Personally I don’t care, they can run their organisation how they see fit, no one is forcing them to belong.

However rules can be changed much easier without a religious focused government, the government’s authority is derived from the mandate given via elections. Not a religious text X number of years old. Secular governments ensure that’s everyone is treated under the same broad laws, unless they choose otherwise (no female bishops, but a boss can’t not hire someone because their a female)

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In Islam dominated country It is normal that Islam could be represented in the parlement, as Christianity is represented in countries like Germany.
Of course, I wouldn’t argue for a majority Muslim country to live under Jedi law, unless they chose to. However, that country (or rather the current government of that country) has a duty to protect ALL its citizens equally, unless they choose to be discriminated against (female bishops, again). A strict Christian country would more than likely favour Christians over Buddhists, which is (imo) not a great way to run a country. Secularism is the best way to ensure all people living within that nations borders are treated equally, be they Jedi or Christian, Atheist or Muslim.

I know that Germany is a modern secular democracy, but if there was a political party in the UK with the name ‘Christian’ in it, they would never get in…even though Christianity has been here for about 1,500 years….each to their own I guess

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Originally Posted by Efendi View Post
Turks fear from their religion,they fear from their past, because It is how they were educated in the schools. Ottoman sharia condemned as backward, literature condemned because of Its noneturkish loan words by nationalist state.

They were frightened by giving example of Iran revolution, which has nothing to do with roots of Iran and our Ottoman past. Obviouslly has nothing to do with Turkey. No reason to fear that Turkey will turn nout to be a dictatorship of teocracy as she was in many many centuries ago.
That is not my fear, but some Turks here have expressed their concern at the growing religious-based policy of the Turkish government. Most of my current affaris information about Turkey comes from this place, I trust the opinion of Historumites more than the opinion-facts of the media

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Originally Posted by Efendi View Post
They have to face and accept that It is Islamic country. AKP(Erdoğans party) is naturaly democratic outcome of this fact. This who we are, why not facing this?
I have no problem with this fact as the Turkish people have chosen this, their secular democracy has allows either an observant Muslim or a secular Muslim to become their leader, it’s the choice which is great.

You can be an Islamic country who strictly follows Islamic law and cultural practises which are endorsed by Islamic teachings (Iran, Sudan, Pakistan), or be an Islamic country where Islam is the majorty religion but the government is free to choose if the Islamic law is the best way to respond to a certain situation (Turkey).

Given the choice, I would live and raise my family in Turkey over Pakistan any day of the week
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:29 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by infestør View Post
hehehe the credit should go to wikipedia as i stole the map from there

(look at denmark. it's the only country in europe with state religion goddamn royals! stealing our tax money)
Also Greece. (And Vatican lol)
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:00 AM   #74

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efendi View Post
Things may go different on the arena, a state could intervene into religion under banner of secularism. Forcing ladies to uncover their heads. banning religious symbols.

These are intervention and they are religious.

Secualarism could be used to mandate things.
You are right about that.

Quote:
In Islam dominated country It is normal that Islam could be represented in the parlement, as Christianity is represented in countries like Germany.
Nope, it's not normal. No religion should be represented in any parliament. But it's acceptable if the religious parties are not radicals.

Quote:
Turks fear from their religion,they fear from their past, because It is how they were educated in the schools.
So you think secularist are brainwashed paranoids, and Islamists are the only conscious people in Turkey because they resisted brainwashing. Umm, yeah well... Sorry to ruin your illusion but we are not brainwashed, we are capable of thinking freely. This was an insult to secularists Efendi.

Quote:
Ottoman sharia condemned as backward, literature condemned because of Its noneturkish loan words by nationalist state.
Well, sharia is definitely backward. As for Ottoman literature, i like and respect all arts. Though i prefer the folk poets to diwan poets. I don't know what's wrong with that.

Quote:
They were frightened by giving example of Iran revolution, which has nothing to do with roots of Iran and our Ottoman past. Obviouslly has nothing to do with Turkey. No reason to fear that Turkey will turn nout to be a dictatorship of teocracy as she was in many many centuries ago.
You think, secularists expect that someone will say "I declare myself sultan, and from now on this is a theocratic country!". Well, of course there won't be such a thing. But our lives are becoming more Islamic day by day with new laws. Why should Islamists declare sharia, they can do whatever they want within the democratic system. Turkey's democracy is easy to abuse thanks to uneducated religious masses. Just tell them you are religious like them, tell them you are a man of God, tell them you do whatever you do in the name of God... And they will vote for you for the rest of their lives, no matter what. No?

Quote:
They have to face and accept that It is Islamic country. AKP(Erdoğans party) is naturaly democratic outcome of this fact. This who we are, why not facing this?
This is not who i am, why don't you respect that?
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:21 AM   #75

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The problem I see in Turkey is that people are stuck between the Islamists and the military which is not very democratic. Although I'm a secular person and not even a Muslim both sides make me uncomfortable.

Also, don't the roots of the language reform go back further than the Republic? Although the republic I think rightly gets most of the credit for implementing it.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:23 AM   #76

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<offtopic>a non-secular country: a country that bases its law and implementations on religious law which is derived from a book at least 2 millenia old and promises milk and honey if you behave and go to heaven. wow, totally reasonable(!) if you wanna believe in smth, go believe in that. secularism doesn't take anything from your belief freedom. but this is only your business and you can't force your religious doughnut ideas onto other people in real life by using politics.</offtopic>

Last edited by infestør; December 5th, 2012 at 11:01 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 11:35 AM   #77

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Also, don't the roots of the language reform go back further than the Republic? Although the republic I think rightly gets most of the credit for implementing it.
Yes, they are older (not much, however):

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

The Turkic Languages, eds. L. Johanson & E.A. Csato, Routledge, London (1998), p. 201-202
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Old December 5th, 2012, 12:15 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efendi View Post
Things may go different on the arena, a state could intervene into religion under banner of secularism. Forcing ladies to uncover their heads. banning religious symbols.

These are intervention and they are religious.

Secualarism could be used to mandate things.



In Islam dominated country It is normal that Islam could be represented in the parlement, as Christianity is represented in countries like Germany.

Turks fear from their religion,they fear from their past, because It is how they were educated in the schools. Ottoman sharia condemned as backward, literature condemned because of Its noneturkish loan words by nationalist state.

They were frightened by giving example of Iran revolution, which has nothing to do with roots of Iran and our Ottoman past. Obviouslly has nothing to do with Turkey. No reason to fear that Turkey will turn nout to be a dictatorship of teocracy as she was in many many centuries ago.

They have to face and accept that It is Islamic country. AKP(Erdoğans party) is naturaly democratic outcome of this fact. This who we are, why not facing this?
It is not normal or healthy to have a party with a religion's name in it or have US president swear on bible. These are all very wrong things in my view. Also this is very, very wishful thinking. Look at Iran's past and look at Egypt's past then compare them to their current situation and you will see how with time people actually became religious and start adopting things that are not even in the islam in the first place, like burkas.

Turkey is not an islamic country. Turkey is a secular country with a muslim majority.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #79

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Guys, since its clearly off-topic, I'll open a thread on this soon.....hope to see you there...
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Old December 5th, 2012, 11:53 PM   #80

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Originally Posted by Baldtastic View Post
I disagree, secularism can be changed by the elected representatives whereas Islamic (or any other relgious) law cannot. It comes from God and to argue against this (in an non-secular-Islamic country) = death.



I disagree, it has only happened in Turkey. From what i hear from some Turkish posters this is even starting to change.



Please bear in mind that those glory days were preceded by conquest and subjection, effectively colonization of foreigners. I realize that times were different then but its still possible to argue that the Islamic conquests were colonization, as seen during the European colonisation between the 17th-19th century.

The knowledge of the ,Persians, Greeks, Indians and Egyptians (and many others) then gave rise to the Islamic glory days. Just as the natural resources of India (for the most part, and many others) gave rise to the glory days of Britain.

Be proud of the achievements of those great people, be proud of the system that allowed them to achieve that. From what i have read the ME at that time was more 'secular' than Europe



Charity has never been bigger. Just look a the USA-style fundraiser events where billions of dollars are raised and given out...and not only given to people who happen to believe in the same God or live in the same country.



From an outsiders perspective, the backwardness of the ME is largely due to the dictatorship style governments (lack of personal freedom) and state implementation of religious law, which came from a society about 1000 years ago, and so is un-surprising it conflicts with the world people are born into today - hence the confusion.

EDIT; This is completely off-topic, so perhaps a different thread would be the best place to continue this? Anyway i'll let you get back to discussing this topic
1- What I meant is that either Islam or Secularism can be bent or misused to the detriment of a country. Besides, Islam allows flexibillity in interpretation and application.

2- The glory days is not always conquests...Its what comes after that. And your comparison of a nation rich of natural resources and the Islamic dynasties blend of Ancient cultures for its development is not a good comparison....Its those's dynasties/people mentalities and behavior that made that blend of cultures effective, so there is an effort done here...while natural resources are god's grants.....

3- I think you misread my point when you mentioned "Charity". I actually wrote "Clarity"

4- I agree with your point on leaders, but you have to know that most of them didn't adhere to Islamic way 100% in the first place.

Islam, like any religion doesn't preclude human development. Islam provides even financial and economic solutions....you think its some 1400+ outdated law but its interpretations can suit or accomodate societies at different ages....Bearing in mind the differences between its application and teachings.
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