Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 5th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #61
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawnmowerman View Post
That makes no sense and is totally and utterly wrong.
It's utterly wrong because of what? Did you know that Soviet army officers actually told their men they would be fighting "Chinese mercenaries" in afghanistan, and claimed that hundreds of chinese trainers were working at mujahideen camps in Pakistan?

All those soviet claims were made up crap of course, but China set up mujahideen camps in Xinjiang near the pakistan border and supplied tons of weapons to the mujahideen, and trained them, mostly native Afghans (china did not train foreign fighters like bin laden and the afghan arabs).
deke is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 5th, 2012, 01:59 PM   #62

Lawnmowerman's Avatar
Cutting your grass
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,996
Blog Entries: 1

I ment the bit about Soviet collapse in Afghanistan meaning they couldn't help in Veitnam. The 2 conflicts are decades appart.

Apologies, I re-read your previous posts. You are of course refering to the China-Veitnam border war not the American - Veitnam war.

Please accept my apologies.

Click the image to open in full size.
Lawnmowerman is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #63
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawnmowerman View Post
I ment the bit about Soviet collapse in Afghanistan meaning they couldn't help in Veitnam. The 2 conflicts are decades appart.
China invaded vietnam in 1979, raided and bombarded vietnam during the entire decade in the 1980s and defeated the vietnamese navy in 1988 at south johnson reef. The vietnamese could not stop china's incessant artillery shelling for years. China also laid tons of landmines on vietnamese soil and most material damage was inflicted on the vietnamese side in every incursion. The Soviet war in afghanistan lasted from 1979 to 1989.

[edit] ok i just saw your new edits, i submitted this comment before i refreshed the page.
deke is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #64

Tlacaelel's Avatar
Academician
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Tenochtitlán
Posts: 56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickeyman View Post
The US had about 7000 soldiers in the regular army at the start of the war.
(+/- 300 depending on source)

31,000 new recruits were added to the regular army that fought in Mexico.

And additional 73,260 volunteer militias were also recruited for the war. These were supplied by some states that wished to.

I haven't been able to find a figure for the size of the Mexican army, but about 25,000 Mexican soldiers died in the war.

I found something. In 1846 the Mexican army consisted of 18,882 permanent regulars, 10,495 active full time militia and 1,174 border troops. Total = 30,551
The Mexican Army was hugely divided, not to say rudely "profesional". The combined Mexican militia and professional army never exceeded the amount of 40 thousand men at the same time, and if Mexico could muster over those numbers, the logical strains would become a paramount problem.

And as of the soldiers and civs killed, 6 thousand were soldiers and 4 thousand civilians.

40,000 vs 78,800 gringos in two fronts was not an enviable advantage for the Mexicans numerically speaking.

And speaking about other dumb war, I would point out the clashes between China, India and Pakistan in the Himalayas. I think they have more casualties due to bad weather and diseases than actual combat.
Tlacaelel is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 02:47 PM   #65

bluesman's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
From: Boston
Posts: 820
Blog Entries: 1

I have to second harbinger on the Sicilian Expedition. I mean, holy crap Athens. I believe it was the largest army the city ever fielded up to that point, under three commanders. One of these, Nicias, was the only notable Athenian to try to dissuade the expedition and Alcibiades was due to one of his many scandals. Lamachus dies doing warrior stuff and Demosthenes, another Athenian general arrives. The Athenians pissed off the rest of the island during the lead up to their assault on Syracuse and cannot break through, having to run all over the island after the siege is broken.

All in all, the army was completely routed and destroyed in detail, and Athens lost its most experienced military leaders in Nicias, Lamachus, and Demosthenes. Oh, and all this went on while Athens was fighting Sparta.
bluesman is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #66

Glowin's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 436

There was a lot of dumb invasions in history, but when you hear words "dumb" and "invasion" together, first thing that comes to yer mind is BAY OF PIGS! No contest.
Glowin is online now  
Old December 5th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #67

Mangekyou's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: UK
Posts: 5,803
Blog Entries: 5

I will now put paid to any one else's contenders for "dumbest invasion."

The most stupidest invasion of all time is the attempted invasion of Sark, by the French, Nuclear physicist, Andre Gardes. In summary:

Quote:
In August 1990, an unemployed French nuclear physicist named André Gardes attempted a singlehanded invasion of Sark, armed with a semi-automatic weapon. The night Gardes arrived he put up signs declaring his intention to take over the island the following day at noon. He was arrested while sitting on a bench, changing the gun’s magazine and waiting for noon to arrive, by the island’s volunteer Constable.

Source: Cynical-C | The Invasion of Sark

If only it were a surprise!
Mangekyou is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 04:10 PM   #68

Epix's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 630

Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
It's utterly wrong because of what? Did you know that Soviet army officers actually told their men they would be fighting "Chinese mercenaries" in afghanistan, and claimed that hundreds of chinese trainers were working at mujahideen camps in Pakistan?

All those soviet claims were made up crap of course, but China set up mujahideen camps in Xinjiang near the pakistan border and supplied tons of weapons to the mujahideen, and trained them, mostly native Afghans (china did not train foreign fighters like bin laden and the afghan arabs).
Did not know about this. And I would not think the Chinese would be so dumb to get involved seeing that they had there own problems in Xinjiang. You know, the Uyghurs who wanted there own nation.

Quote:
It has been alleged that the Chinese military had sent Uyghurs for combat training in Afghanistan during 1980s as part of an alliance with the Mujahideen against the Soviet forces. It has also been alleged that the PLA was involved in training the Mujahideen both within Pakistan and in camps inside Xinjiang. This might have seemed a sensible Chinese strategy to build up its credibility in Central Asia during the Sino-Soviet dispute. China supplied large amounts of weaponry through the local people, who knew the terrains in Xinjiang and the Pamirs, to support the Afghan Mujahideen against the Soviet forces in Afghanistan. So, Chinese support to the radical factions backfired on the Chinese government as it happened to the US government During the Taliban regime, it was easy to use these channels to get weapons back into Xinjiang.
Epix is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #69
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,090

Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
I meant that the Soviet union was tied down in afghanistan and it collapsed soon after the war so it could not help Vietnam.

China supplied tons of ak-47s, machine guns, mortars, anti tank missles, and anti aircraft missles and directly trained some of the mujahideen.
The Afghans may have gotten something from China, but if so it wasn't significant compared huge amounts of money put up by the US and Saudi Arabia.
betgo is online now  
Old December 5th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #70
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epix View Post
Did not know about this. And I would not think the Chinese would be so dumb to get involved seeing that they had there own problems in Xinjiang. You know, the Uyghurs who wanted there own nation.
You know that the name "uyghur" was invented by the soviet union and that the soviets were supporting uyghur separatists?

Situating the Uyghurs Between China and Central Asia - Ildikó Bellér-Hann - Google Books

Situating the Uyghurs Between China and Central Asia - Ildikó Bellér-Hann - Google Books

Situating the Uyghurs Between China and Central Asia - Ildikó Bellér-Hann - Google Books

Warlords and Muslims in Chinese Central Asia: A Political History of ... - Andrew D. W. Forbes - Google Books

The soviets and white russians helped uyghurs massacre chinese civilians in Ili in 1944 and 1945. Neither the uyghurs nor the russians are indigenous to Ili, the uyghurs there were descendants of the taranchi, slave laborers deported to ili from tarim by their zunghar masters, and russians were settlers as well.

Before soviet times, the uyghurs called themselves by the oasis they came from, like kashgari or khotani. They never called themselves "uyghur", until the soviets stole that name from the uyghur khaganate whose real descendants are the Yugur.

Uyghur nationalist history is soviet anti china propaganda. They claim they called themselves uyghurs since humankind was created and that the uyghur empire ruled xinjiang 6,000 years ago. The uyghurs had no native history or tradition of recording history, so the soviets manufactured one for them. The uyghur ethnic group was created in 1921 in Tashkent by the soviets and many uyghur nationalists were soviet agents.

Tha Taliban was also under ISI control and practiced realpolitik. If enough pressure was given from Pakistan they would not harbor people planning to attack other countries.

China does not have separatists among the salars and other muslims and turkic people in China. The uyghurs, whom i will refer to as eastern turki when talking about their past, where divided into many khanates which were under Zunghar mongol domination. The turkis of the kumul khanate were being massacred by the zunghars and joined china without the threat of force, and joining china's campaign to crush the zunghar. The kumul khanate had supported the ming dynasty against the qing before that.

It was among the eastern turkis of the tarim basin in kashgar where the white mountain sufis led by Khoja leaders where there was resistance to Qing rule. However, the black mountain sufis led by their separate khojas supported the Qing.

There was no nationalist anti China movement in the tarim basin among the eastern turkis until first the jadidists and anti ataturk young turks spread pan turkism and the Soviets started uyghur nationalism.

Last edited by deke; December 5th, 2012 at 06:21 PM.
deke is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

Tags
attempt, dumb, epic, fail, invasion


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.