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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by jeroenrottgering View Post
Of all the wars for independence, think of the Eighty Years War (Dutch independence against the Spanish, American Revolution, Gandhi struggle for Indian independence etc. Which of all those struggles in history interests you the most and why?
There are myriad candidates; at the moment it would probably be the Palestinian one, largely because we are currently attesting it in literally painful detail.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #52

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Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica View Post
I've read about that and my memory is a little fuzzy. The survivors & i could be absolutely wrong about this, but weren't they slaves?
Sorry, my mistake, there were allegedly seven survivors; two women and five children.

I just think they were zealots.

I guess most people are introduced to the graphic nature of Roman warfare by the works of Josephus. In fact and unless the matter has been settled, some historians think Josephus was a bit biased in favor of the Romans, regardless of him being Jewish. Has this matter been settled?
Have you ever heard of the "Josephus problem"?

It's basically a count out game, whereby a group of people stand in a circle waiting to be executed. The count-down goes in a fixed direction whereby a certain amount of people will skipped and the following person is executed. This process continues until the net tightens and one person remains; whom gains freedom. The idea behind it, is to to try and guess the correct place in the circle to be, so that you don't get executed.

This is sort of based on what happened at the siege of Yodfat, which is where Josephus commanded his Jewish resistance group, and where he was supposed to be part of mass suicide, but instead kept his own life and served the Flavians; becoming friends and advisor to Titus.

However, in this extreme distress, he was not destitute of his usual sagacity; but trusting himself to the providence of God, he put his life into hazard [in the manner following]: "And now," said he, "since it is resolved among you that you will die, come on, let us commit our mutual deaths to determination by lot. He whom the lot falls to first, let him be killed by him that hath the second lot, and thus fortune shall make its progress through us all; nor shall any of us perish by his own right hand, for it would be unfair if, when the rest are gone, somebody should repent and save himself." This proposal appeared to them to be very just; and when he had prevailed with them to determine this matter by lots, he drew one of the lots for himself also. He who had the first lot laid his neck bare to him that had the next, as supposing that the general would die among them immediately; for they thought death, if Josephus might but die with them, was sweeter than life; yet was he with another left to the last, whether we must say it happened so by chance, or whether by the providence of God. And as he was very desirous neither to be condemned by the lot, nor, if he had been left to the last, to imbrue his right hand in the blood of his countrymen, he persuaded him to trust his fidelity to him, and to live as well as himself.

Source: Book 3, Chapter 8, par 7, The Jewish War, Josephus (writing of himself in the third person)
His reputation for many years, took a battering as he was called everything from a fraud to a collaborator and traitor. I think during the sweeping revisionist fad that comes with the modern day, historians look a bit more kindly on him now, but he still has his critiques.

He was certainly a patron of the Romans, and probably inflated/exaggerated alot of the figures, but his works are a primary source on the period, an archeological activities on Yodfat, reveall that the core of his commentaries are accurate, even is a little exaggerated.

Imo, his works are still to be valued, and have helped archeologists discover many things. As for the collaborator business, I think its important to note that, although he never committed suicide, we should remember that in Jewish tradition, that was against Rabbianic tradition, so is a bit of a contradictive notion held against Josephus.

Originally Posted by Brunel View Post

The first guillotine was the Halifax Gibbet, which was used in the town of Halifax, Yorkshire (now West Yorkshire).

It was probably installed some time during the 16th century as an alternative to beheading by axe or sword. Halifax was once part of the Manor of Wakefield, where ancient custom and law gave the Lord of the Manor the authority to execute summarily by decapitation any thief caught with stolen goods to the value of 13d or more, or who confessed to having stolen goods of at least that value. Decapitation was a fairly common method of execution in England, but Halifax was unusual in two respects: it employed a guillotine-like machine that appears to have been unique in the country, and it continued to decapitate petty criminals until the mid-17th century.

A replica of the Halifax Gibbet stands on its original site in the town.

Click the image to open in full size.
Dammit, you stole my thunder

Last edited by Mangekyou; December 12th, 2012 at 09:47 AM.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:45 AM   #53

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The Cuban war of Independence was epic. They even had a ten years war.
The first attempt at Independence started a Ten Years war. It was called Grito de Yara. and took place in 1868. Puerto Ricos revolt against Spain also took place in 1868.
History of Cuba - The Ten Year War

A second attempt at Independence was called the Short war.
The Little War of 1878 - History of Cuba

Third time the charm. Should point out that the Cuban people had the Spanish worn down so US entry into the war only quicken by several month the same outcome.
Spanish-Cuban-American War - History of Cuba

The island of Puerto Rico also had revolts for Independence in 1868 and 1950. Just like in Cuba, Puerto Ricos first and only two revolts ended in defeat.

The first attempt at Independence.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grito_de_Lares"]Grito de Lares - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The second attempt at Independence.
Jayuya Uprising - Citizendia

Last edited by Epix; December 12th, 2012 at 11:51 AM.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 03:29 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Linschoten View Post
How about Belgium's war of independence against their Dutch oppressors? Why, the evil Dutch even resorted to suicide bombing:
Jan van Speyk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No just no xD. Belgium is ours. Such a shame the United Kingdom of the Netherlands split up. Finally the dream of William the Silent came trough and then a bunch of Walloon aristocrats had to screw things over. Also the only time I really hated the French, by intervening on the side of Belgium. Instead of two mediocre powers we could now have been equal to France.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Zeno View Post
While i share the fascination for the rebellion in the Lowlands and the independence and golden age of the Netherlands, from the point of view of the losers, the Belgians, the rebellion wasn't a success. A people got split up in two. The richer, populous, then culturally leading part of the Dutch lands were given up for a retreat to the swamps and the Lowcountries first city, Antwerpen, was blokkaded and economically strangled by the Dutch brothers for another 200 years, long after the war was over, never to regain its status as western Europe's first port. But the Belgians, through direct links to the Habsburg and their Peruvian empire of the Great Inca undoubtedly, did come up with the idea of frying sliced potato chips twice in hot oil. And unlike the Dutch, they never served them in edible packaging. So things did balance out in the end.
Well you have to admit most Belgians were Catholic and wanted to stay loyal to the king, it was not that we Dutch forced the Belgians to stay at the side of the losers. Maurice of Nassau even attempted to gain some lands back in the south, but it was out of his reach.

Then yes we blockaded the harbor of Antwerp after it was already sacked by the Spanish multiple times. And yes it was blockaded, but much of the successful Antwerpians went north and helped boosting the city of Amsterdam. It was kind of a logical choice, do we people of the north want to have the most successful harbor, or do we give that to the catholic south. Simple choice, and also kind of the result of the lesser willingness of the south to side with Orange and his gang.

Btw, love to talk to you about Dutch history again. You know a lot and it is done to few on this forum. While in fact we were the most important player in the late 17th century in Europe.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:25 PM   #56

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In 1568, the bulk of hellish Calvinists probably lived in central and southern Low Countries, especially around industrial areas, while the bulk of population was surprisingly a-religious according to several studies. Iconoclasts were specially vicious in Artois and other old textile areas. That's before Alba dedicated and hard job.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #57
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The Trung sisters rebellion against the chinese. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trung_sisters"]http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trung_sisters[/ame]

Last edited by Gorge123; December 12th, 2012 at 04:57 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #58

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Originally Posted by Clodius View Post
(And also, he may have been Jewish but he was also Roman. Titus Flavius Josephus, the "Jewish" historian, has just as much right to be described as a "Roman historian" as Publius Cornelius Tacitus, who was knocking around at the same time as him. But he never is called that - he's always Josephus, "the Jewish historian"!)
Indeed. It didn't cross my mind to put that in there. Thank you for correcting my thoughtlessness.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #59

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Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica View Post
Indeed. It didn't cross my mind to put that in there. Thank you for correcting my thoughtlessness.
Don't worry, nobody ever calls him Roman! And TBH, I'm the same, I usually say "a Jewish historian" whenever people say to me "you're writing a thesis on who?!!!"

His Roman-ness is interesting. I've got a half-formed ambition someday to write an academic paper on how (or even whether) Josephus seems to identify as a Roman in his writings.

But we're going OT (I've been doing that a lot lately!)
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 01:39 PM   #60

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Originally Posted by Soulstrider View Post
The Poles and the Irish.
Ireland didn't struggle for independence, it was given in 1912 without a drop of blood spilt or shot fired in anger

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Home_Rule_Bill]Government of Ireland Act 1914 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
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