Surrounded, and Outnumbered - Historum

Virgil · December 11th, 2012, 05:15 PM

I want to discuss what might go through the mind of a leader and his followers of a country or empire that is losing ground in a war. They are not defeated yet, but the situation is increasingly looking dire.

Is there an all or nothing complex with these people, that they cannot just negotiate for something far less than what they are used to? Wouldn't it have been better for Napoleon to do a better job of capitulating after the Russian disaster? Same question for Hitler, surely he could have backed off once the Allies truly started gaining strength. I think to current day figures such as Quadafi and the Assad. Quadafi suffered the worst, what is Assad thinking now?

**tjadams** · December 11th, 2012, 05:19 PM

I could only assume that the egos of the leaders in question tell them
that either God has chosen them, Fate, or Destiny, for a greater calling
and somehow they will come out on top again when things look the
darkest.

**Apachewarlord** · December 11th, 2012, 05:26 PM

It all really depends on the person and people involved. For me, I'd probably fight it out till it gets to a point where there is absolutely no way for me to win, however, I certainly wouldn't fight until there is nothing left of my country, like what Hitler did. One reason why a lot of leaders tend to fight till the bitter end is that people like Hitler and Napoleon tend to be egomaniacs. Leaders in general tend to have a big ego. For people like that (I'm honestly one of them) It is hard to admit that they've lost. However, there are some situations where this isn't necessarily true. I do not believe that a lot of native american tribes fought to the bitter end because of an ego, but rather because they knew that if they didn't fight they'd be destroyed anyway.

Virgil · December 11th, 2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apachewarlord

It all really depends on the person and people involved. For me, I'd probably fight it out till it gets to a point where there is absolutely no way for me to win, however, I certainly wouldn't fight until there is nothing left of my country, like what Hitler did. One reason why a lot of leaders tend to fight till the bitter end is that people like Hitler and Napoleon tend to be egomaniacs. Leaders in general tend to have a big ego. For people like that (I'm honestly one of them) It is hard to admit that they've lost. However, there are some situations where this isn't necessarily true. I do not believe that a lot of native american tribes fought to the bitter end because of an ego, but rather because they knew that if they didn't fight they'd be destroyed anyway.

That really is true of the situation the Native Americans were in. They should have fought and they did.

**Belgarion** · December 11th, 2012, 05:43 PM

If it were me I hope I would be a good enough leader to put my ego aside and negotiate the best deal possible for my country. Perhaps looking to renew the struggle another day under more favourable conditions. However the people mentioned above are sociopathic egomaniacs who believe that they are the nation and the nation rises and falls with them. Also, most people in their postion have committed such atrocities on their rise to power that they can't afford to go quietly.

funakison · December 12th, 2012, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgarion

If it were me I hope I would be a good enough leader to put my ego aside and negotiate the best deal possible for my country. Perhaps looking to renew the struggle another day under more favourable conditions. However the people mentioned above are sociopathic egomaniacs who believe that they are the nation and the nation rises and falls with them. Also, most people in their postion have committed such atrocities on their rise to power that they can't afford to go quietly.

It is all down to individual cases. Is your nation going to be enslaved, or the inhabitants massacred. Sometimes its all or nothing on a personal level as well as a national one. No one was going to let Hitler off with a slap on the wrist.

**Apachewarlord** · December 12th, 2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgarion

If it were me I hope I would be a good enough leader to put my ego aside and negotiate the best deal possible for my country. Perhaps looking to renew the struggle another day under more favourable conditions. .

That is what Napoleon tried to do

Paragonrex · December 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM

I think there are two very good examples of this particular scenario.

1. Imagine a bright warm morning on the plains of Isandlwana as the finest warriors of the Zulu Empire charge toward the lines of Colonel Pulleine. The well regimented and steadfast thin red line of British infantry takes careful aim and fires in well rehearsed volleys. But there are to many, the flanks are collapsing. I can see someone like Colonel Pulleine weighing his options, calculating the odds of reforming, or falling back. Finally that fine outstanding exemplar of Victorian spirit, resigns himself to the inevitable and in what my be his final command on the face of this Earth does the one thing expected by a honor bound officer of her Britannic Majesty's military. He gives the order to save the colors.

2. 1876, the Montana territory, the Seventh Calvary finds itself trapped by a far superior number of Native American warriors on the bluffs over the river. As George Armstrong Custer falls back to his final position. His men are forced to shoot their beloved mounts to provide them with cover as the Natives swarm around them. Picking his men off one after another, the famed Civil War veteran and Indian fighter Major General George Custer must be wondering where is Reno? Where is Benteen? Surly they can hear the shots, why are not coming to relieve me? That gentlemen is the knife in the back to Custer from jealous subordinates.

**Apachewarlord** · December 12th, 2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paragonrex

I think there are two very good examples of this particular scenario.

1. Imagine a bright warm morning on the plains of Isandlwana as the finest warriors of the Zulu Empire charge toward the lines of Colonel Pulleine. The well regimented and steadfast thin red line of British infantry takes careful aim and fires in well rehearsed volleys. But there are to many, the flanks are collapsing. I can see someone like Colonel Pulleine weighing his options, calculating the odds of reforming, or falling back. Finally that fine outstanding exemplar of Victorian spirit, resigns himself to the inevitable and in what my be his final command on the face of this Earth does the one thing expected by a honor bound officer of her Britannic Majesty's military. He gives the order to save the colors.

2. 1876, the Montana territory, the Seventh Calvary finds itself trapped by a far superior number of Native American warriors on the bluffs over the river. As George Armstrong Custer falls back to his final position. His men are forced to shoot their beloved mounts to provide them with cover as the Natives swarm around them. Picking his men off one after another, the famed Civil War veteran and Indian fighter Major General George Custer must be wondering where is Reno? Where is Benteen? Surly they can hear the shots, why are not coming to relieve me? That gentlemen is the knife in the back to Custer from jealous subordinates.

Excellent examples indeed

Paragonrex · December 12th, 2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apachewarlord

Excellent examples indeed

Thank you good sir.