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Old December 12th, 2012, 02:15 PM   #11

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He was certainly one of best commanders of all time, imo. One of Genghis Khans hounds of war, a formidable man indeed.

His most accomplished feat would be the planning and execution of the European campaign, leading to the stunning victories of Mohi and Liegnitz. Co-ordination of armies was exemplery, and he also took part in the successful reconnaisance en force in Europe in the 1220's that led to the destructio of the powerful Georgian armies and Rusian armies at the Kalka river.

I dont think he was undefeated though. He was allegedly defeated at the battle of Samara Bend. Although only one record exists and the leader of the Mongolian party is not completely made available, it was certainly during his mission.

He is an underrated general, imo, and his longetivity in warfare was pretty good.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #12

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I agree that he was one of the greatest.

But don't put too much emphasis on his use of artillery in battlefields. That was a millenium and a half old when he born.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #13
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IMHO Subutai tends to be overrated for Eurocentrism by proxy, i.e. given that he defeated so many European nations.

Objectively he was of course a successful commander, but not more nor less than essentially any other contemporary Mongol commander; only exceptionally was any single Mongol army defeated during his lifetime, entirely irrespectively on the commander in turn.

Plainly, it was extremely difficult to be defeated while commanding any Mongol army at the time .
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Old December 12th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #14
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The Mongols did have some great general.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 06:52 PM   #15
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Subutai is a brilliant planner with a good understanding of logistics and foraging, but his battle records is far from ideal. For one Subutai has been defeated more than once. His biggest defeat came with his attack on Henan. The entire operation ended in failure as Subutai was routed by only 1,000 soldiers under Wanyan Hada's leading general Wanyan Cheng Monk. Yuan Shi recorded that "He attacked the Tong pass, his army was defeated, and the emperor upbraided him." This failure delayed the Mongol conquest of the Jin by several years.
Wanyan Cheng Monk not only routed Subutai with an inferior force and chased him all the way to the Hui valley, he also routed an entire Mongol Tumen of 8,000 with only 400 cavalry at Dachang yuan, one of the major victories the Jin scored over the Mongol army. He was undefeated against the Mongols, beating them at Da Chanyuan, Wei Zhou, and Dao Huigu(where he handed Subutai the biggest defeat of his career) and only surrendered when his superior was defeated at Sanfeng mountain and later trapped. Pound for pound, he might well have been the better general.

Last edited by heavenlykaghan; August 2nd, 2013 at 07:16 PM.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 09:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlykaghan View Post
His biggest defeat came with his attack on Henan. The entire operation ended in failure as Subutai was routed by only 1,000 soldiers under Wanyan Hada's leading general Wanyan Cheng Monk. Yuan Shi recorded that "He attacked the Tong pass, his army was defeated, and the emperor upbraided him." This failure delayed the Mongol conquest of the Jin by several years.
Wanyan Cheng Monk not only routed Subutai with an inferior force and chased him all the way to the Hui valley,
Not often one reads about Subutai being defeated at all, let alone so dramatically. Can you point to a web page that discusses this in detail?
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 02:21 AM   #17

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Not sure he is underrated. He is general regarded as the instrument of Chingiz Khan's success, as we as the primary architect of the incredible Western campaign of Batu Khan.

In the books I have read, only Chebe Noyan is mentioned as equally influencial in life, and he dies early.

Look, there is a lot of "horse archery" verses "combined arms/infantry based" argument that goes on between historical fanboys on this and other sights. I have been on both sides, and do not intend to argue it.

The mounted archer fanboys will point to Mongol successes as well as Carrahe, the Huns, etc, and say that mounted archers were the supreme soldiers of the ancient/medieval world.

The other side will point out that mounted archers are only able to have success when the combined arms forces of the "civilized" world are weak due to economic downturn. They (and I) will point out that the Mongles never faced a very good infantry based army, and the various ancient mounted archer armies where often beaten by Roman, Indian, and Chinese combined arms.

This is an astonishingly complex question, and there really is no perfect answer. Was Subatai the best? He was great and that is all.

Last edited by cachibatches; August 3rd, 2013 at 02:23 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 02:38 AM   #18

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It is known that Sobutai of the Uyghur Turks ( Uriankhan tribe) was the Genghis Khan's nr. 1 man and commander , he is the one who conquered the most of territories under Great Khans' banner ( Genghis and Ogedai) . He conquered so much territories that no other commander did so far- including Alexander , Xerxes and any other unstoppable conqueror. He was involved in more than 200 battles ( which most of them commanded by him) and rarely been defeated , mostly retreating and attacking again. He conquered 32 nations , had 65 pitched battles ( none were lost). He was the commander in conquering of Russia , China , most of Persia and northeastern Europe. He also used siege engines directly in battles - for the first time in history , until that time siege engines were used only in sieges. Do you think he is the best commander in history ? Why is he so underrated ?
Subotai was an awesome commander! One of the greats and it it shocking to me how many people have responded that they had never heard of him.

Greatest of all time? Not sure about that, he did lose you know. The comparison with Alexander is interesting, because Alexander did not lose! On both counts the comparison isn't strictly fair because Alexander never lost, and conquered less territory, but did so over a much shorter period of time. Subotai conquered more territory and lost battles in the process. Perhaps these two greats would have evened out with more comparable careers as length of time is concerned?

Subotai is most definitely in the top five,probably top three really. Right up there with the likes of Alexander, Suvorov, Caesar and Napoleon. That's good company if you ask me.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 02:42 AM   #19

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Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Not sure he is underrated. He is general regarded as the instrument of Chingiz Khan's success, as we as the primary architect of the incredible Western campaign of Batu Khan.

In the books I have read, only Chebe Noyan is mentioned as equally influencial in life, and he dies early.

Look, there is a lot of "horse archery" verses "combined arms/infantry based" argument that goes on between historical fanboys on this and other sights. I have been on both sides, and do not intend to argue it.

The mounted archer fanboys will point to Mongol successes as well as Carrahe, the Huns, etc, and say that mounted archers were the supreme soldiers of the ancient/medieval world.

The other side will point out that mounted archers are only able to have success when the combined arms forces of the "civilized" world are weak due to economic downturn. They (and I) will point out that the Mongles never faced a very good infantry based army, and the various ancient mounted archer armies where often beaten by Roman, Indian, and Chinese combined arms.

This is an astonishingly complex question, and there really is no perfect answer. Was Subatai the best? He was great and that is all.
It's really interesting how topics like this flow right from forum to forum. I've noticed the same thing. I recently left a forum I was a long-standing member of because I feel like it's going in more "kiddish" direction; lots of arguments like the one you described above. It's really tiresome.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 05:19 AM   #20
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Greatest of all time? I don't think so. I think Julius Caesar and Napoleon were definitely better. I think Alexander is overrrated.

Remember that both Julius and Napoleon fought against opponents who many times were equal to or greater than them in strength. Julius fought against Pompey who was backed by the Senate (basically all of Rome). Napoleon fought against basically the whole of Europe at a time when those European countries had colonies and resources flowing to them from everywhere around the globe.
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