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Old December 17th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #41
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ok, the real answer is essentially this.

A. The Chinese culture as we know it essentially was one that slowly expanded outward and merged / assimilated the surrounding people over the course of many centuries, military expansions were involved as well but quite often it happened after the cultural assimilation was already taking place.

B. on a geographical level there is less major separation compare to Europe, which was why in the cases where there were separate states , unification often happened fast after a certain breaking point.

C. the constant and predictable nomadic threat gave a considerable incentive for the region to stand united.

D. Before the nomadic threat fully materialized (aka pre Han era) there was the constant threat of the Yellow River flood, which certainly gave incentive of it's own, which can be seen in a similar sense as why Egypt developed into a state so early.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 06:44 PM   #42

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingWave View Post
ok, the real answer is essentially this.

A. The Chinese culture as we know it essentially was one that slowly expanded outward and merged / assimilated the surrounding people over the course of many centuries, military expansions were involved as well but quite often it happened after the cultural assimilation was already taking place.

B. on a geographical level there is less major separation compare to Europe, which was why in the cases where there were separate states , unification often happened fast after a certain breaking point.

C. the constant and predictable nomadic threat gave a considerable incentive for the region to stand united.

D. Before the nomadic threat fully materialized (aka pre Han era) there was the constant threat of the Yellow River flood, which certainly gave incentive of it's own, which can be seen in a similar sense as why Egypt developed into a state so early.
Good points, especially C
What do you think was the main difference between nomadic threats to north China and Imperial Rome?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:12 AM   #43

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I think that happened because the migratory peoples from north of China (mongols, tartars, hunns)choosed to come onto the Roman Empire and not turned south towards China, so pushing forward various peoples from their way to Europe (avars, pecenegs, cumans, goths, bulgars, ungars, vandals and slaves) with one important exception: the mongols, who did in fact conquered China.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:20 AM   #44
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It is my opinion that there has never been a Chinese Empire. They have been a part of two very large empires, The Mongolian Empire and The Manchurian Kingdom but during the times that China was not ruled by another Empire the country was not the large expanse we know today.

Tibet, Xinjiang and the entire Northeast did not come under the China blanket because of the efforts of a Chinese dynasty. These three nations were incorporated into China through the efforts of people who were not Chinese. On this I make my opinion.
And again your opinion is WRONG because in reality, the Han and Tang dynasties ruled over Xinjiang.

Han dynasty

Click the image to open in full size.

Tang dynasty

Click the image to open in full size.

Ming dynasty (ruled over manchuria through Nurgan Regional Military Commision during Yongle emperor)

Click the image to open in full size.

Wait for it.... Wenge next is going to explain how the Han, Tang, and Ming dynasties are not Chinese....

Last edited by deke; January 18th, 2013 at 09:28 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:28 AM   #45

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deke everybody is used to Wenge by now. Maybe you should lighten up a bit.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #46

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China pretty much conquered everything except for the Savages in the steppes. Rome had more enemies.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:42 PM   #47
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because Justinian's attempt to reconquer the rest of Europe failed and was cut short by Justinian's plague. It worth notice that Justinian's expedition to recapture the rest of former Roman Empire's territory was at around the same time as Emperor Wen of Sui reunified China from almost 4 centuries of fragmentation and division.
Justinian I of Eastern Roman Empire: 482-565
Emperor Wen of Sui: 541-604
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:16 PM   #48

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
And again your opinion is WRONG because in reality, the Han and Tang dynasties ruled over Xinjiang.

Han dynasty

Click the image to open in full size.

Tang dynasty

Click the image to open in full size.

Ming dynasty (ruled over manchuria through Nurgan Regional Military Commision during Yongle emperor)

Click the image to open in full size.

Wait for it.... Wenge next is going to explain how the Han, Tang, and Ming dynasties are not Chinese....
This needs to stop...plain and simple.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:38 PM   #49

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
It is my opinion that there has never been a Chinese Empire. They have been a part of two very large empires, The Mongolian Empire and The Manchurian Kingdom but during the times that China was not ruled by another Empire the country was not the large expanse we know today.

Tibet, Xinjiang and the entire Northeast did not come under the China blanket because of the efforts of a Chinese dynasty. These three nations were incorporated into China through the efforts of people who were not Chinese. On this I make my opinion.
I'll explain to you again, China had many minorities within their domain including northern tribes, and southern tribes.

Of course, your definition of an empire is that the minorities have to be persecuted.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 09:01 AM   #50
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For me there are two reasons which help to explain why China remain a single centralized power but Europe failed:

A) The absence of competition. Save for nomadic raids, there was little threat from foreign organized powers in China. On the other hand, Rome and its descendants (Byzantium and the Ottoman empire) always had to contend with a powerful Iranian Empire. In Europe, the independent German and Slavic people may also have had a destabilizing role unknown in China (maybe)

B) China was fundamentally centralizing while Rome was not. Conquered provinces retained their customs and their elites. Cities preserved their self-rule principles, etc. Even culturally the Empire was not united as Greek remained the main language in half of the empire. China had a much more top-down approach. Byzantium and the Ottomans were more centralizing but by then it may have been too late.
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