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Old January 17th, 2013, 09:37 PM   #11

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Yugoslavia was interesting in that it didn't use phrase "national minority" for nm's... It used "peoples", not wanting them to feel like Yugoslavia is not their country.
Glowin, mind you! As far as I know Yugoslavia was using th term ''national minorities'' for those ethnic groups that had a kin-state. For instance Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, were still "national minorities''. Also the Albanians even though the number of Albanians from Kosovo, Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro was very high.

The "people" were those who had no such kin state and were thus entitled to a Republic within Yugoslavia.

I will write later today about the Serbs in Romania, but I also want to ask you something. Is there an English version of the 1974 Yugoslav Constitution? Thanks and good luck with the paper!
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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:49 AM   #12

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Serbs in Romania


The vast majority of the Serbs living currently in Romania are the descendents of those people who were living in the Austrian Monarchy in 1918 and who lived in the part of Banat that went to Romania not to the Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenes.

As Wallachia and Serbia always did share a small border they were a lot of Serbs who served as soldiers in Wallachian principality since the XV century (the most famous is Old Novac, or in Serbian Starina Novak, the right hadn man of the Wallachian prince Michael the Brave). The Serb soldiers were known as seimeni, I don't know the meaning. However, as they were migrating in an place where most of the people were Orthodox Christians and the determinant element of the identity was the religion, not the language, they were quickly assimilating in this environment.

In the itnerwar period the Serbs living in Banat region had their rights protected by the Minority Treaty as well as by the bilateral Conventions concluded by Romania and the Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenes (Yugoslavia) so they were able to attend schools in Serbian and to attend churches under the jurisdiction of the Serb Orthodox Church (there is a Serb bishop in Timisoara).

In WW II they were rather unaffected by the events as the Banat region remained in the Kingdom of Romania and the region itself was not really affected by the war. Apparently a number of Serbs crossed the border and joined Tito's partizans (no ideas about how many).

In Timisoara itself there was however greater sympathy for the King Peter II (it was the same with the Romanians as Peter's mother was Romanian). Apparently after WW II a small numbers of Chetniks (again no idea how many) sought refuge in Romania.

As WW II was over there was a small number of the Serbs living in Romania who asked for a revision of the borders and the annexation of Banat by Yugoslavia (the Communist Yugoslavia also encouraged the idea). They were raids of Partizans in the border region and armed incidents in 1945 - 1946. However, the Paris Peace conference rejected the idea and the border remained the same as in 1919. What seem to have been achieved was the creation of a strong intelligence cell in Timisoara working for Yugoslavia's secret service.

After 1947 and the establishment of the Communist regime in Romania a number of Serbs from Romania became members of the secret police (Securitate). The most infamous were Vida (Vidosava) Nedic and Sava Bugarski (Bugarschi according to the Romanian spelling). These two were maintained in their positions even after the split with Tito in 1948. Vida known as "the sadistic Vida" was specialised in beating the prisoners on testicles until they would confess.

However in 1950 these two together with other Serbs in Party were convicted for being "titoist spies". They were liberated in 1954. Vida tried to go in her home village but she was so hated by the Serbs there that she had to go to Yugoslavia. In 2010 she was still living in Belgrade...

In 1948 a certain number of anti Tito Serbs left for the Eastern block countries including Romania. Some have settled there for good. One of the most tragic results of the Tito Stalin split was tha fact that a large number of people from Banat living in the area of 25 kilometres from the border were forcefully relocated in south eastern part of Romania in the plains of Baragan. While not directed against the Serb minority, they were also affected by that. After 1954 most people were able to return to their birth places.

After 1955 as th Communist Romania and Yugoslavia were seeking better relations with each other the situation of the Serbs in Banat got better (as good as it could get in a Communist country). They were alowed to visit Yugoslavia they had schools teaching in Serbian and the Serb Orthodox Churches were reopen.

In the 80's which was an awful decade they suffered together with the rest of the population and after that they went through the same problems in the transition period. Currently I guess they are about 22.000 Serbs in Romania. Most of them belong to the Serb Orthodox Church but about 1000 are Orthodox Old Believers.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:56 AM   #13

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Glowin, mind you! As far as I know Yugoslavia was using th term ''national minorities'' for those ethnic groups that had a kin-state. For instance Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, were still "national minorities''. Also the Albanians even though the number of Albanians from Kosovo, Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro was very high.

The "people" were those who had no such kin state and were thus entitled to a Republic within Yugoslavia.

I will write later today about the Serbs in Romania, but I also want to ask you something. Is there an English version of the 1974 Yugoslav Constitution? Thanks and good luck with the paper!
Actually no, they didn't use term "national minorities" or "minorities" from certain period. Yugoslavia was home to "narodi i narodnosti", "narodi" being a term for constitutional ethinc groups, those that had republics, while "narodnosti" was a term for those ethnic groups without republic. Magyars and Albanians were "narodnosti" but they HAD autonomous provinces - so they were somewhere in between.

"Narod(i)" means people(s) or nation(s). Narodnost(i) means nationality or ethnicity (according to google translate). They didn't use the term national minority because some "narodnosti" might feel offended or degraded by the status of minority.

As for connstitution... I have the one from 1963 in English... And 1974, but only in Serbian http://sr.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A3...98%D0%B5_(1974)
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:04 AM   #14

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The vast majority of the Serbs living currently in Romania are the descendents of those people who were living in the Austrian Monarchy in 1918 and who lived in the part of Banat that went to Romania not to the Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenes.

As Wallachia and Serbia always did share a small border they were a lot of Serbs who served as soldiers in Wallachian principality since the XV century (the most famous is Old Novac, or in Serbian Starina Novak, the right hadn man of the Wallachian prince Michael the Brave). The Serb soldiers were known as seimeni, I don't know the meaning. However, as they were migrating in an place where most of the people were Orthodox Christians and the determinant element of the identity was the religion, not the language, they were quickly assimilating in this environment.

In the itnerwar period the Serbs living in Banat region had their rights protected by the Minority Treaty as well as by the bilateral Conventions concluded by Romania and the Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenes (Yugoslavia) so they were able to attend schools in Serbian and to attend churches under the jurisdiction of the Serb Orthodox Church (there is a Serb bishop in Timisoara).

In WW II they were rather unaffected by the events as the Banat region remained in the Kingdom of Romania and the region itself was not really affected by the war. Apparently a number of Serbs crossed the border and joined Tito's partizans (no ideas about how many).

In Timisoara itself there was however greater sympathy for the King Peter II (it was the same with the Romanians as Peter's mother was Romanian). Apparently after WW II a small numbers of Chetniks (again no idea how many) sought refuge in Romania.

As WW II was over there was a small number of the Serbs living in Romania who asked for a revision of the borders and the annexation of Banat by Yugoslavia (the Communist Yugoslavia also encouraged the idea). They were raids of Partizans in the border region and armed incidents in 1945 - 1946. However, the Paris Peace conference rejected the idea and the border remained the same as in 1919. What seem to have been achieved was the creation of a strong intelligence cell in Timisoara working for Yugoslavia's secret service.

After 1947 and the establishment of the Communist regime in Romania a number of Serbs from Romania became members of the secret police (Securitate). The most infamous were Vida (Vidosava) Nedic and Sava Bugarski (Bugarschi according to the Romanian spelling). These two were maintained in their positions even after the split with Tito in 1948. Vida known as "the sadistic Vida" was specialised in beating the prisoners on testicles until they would confess.

However in 1950 these two together with other Serbs in Party were convicted for being "titoist spies". They were liberated in 1954. Vida tried to go in her home village but she was so hated by the Serbs there that she had to go to Yugoslavia. In 2010 she was still living in Belgrade...

In 1948 a certain number of anti Tito Serbs left for the Eastern block countries including Romania. Some have settled there for good. One of the most tragic results of the Tito Stalin split was tha fact that a large number of people from Banat living in the area of 25 kilometres from the border were forcefully relocated in south eastern part of Romania in the plains of Baragan. While not directed against the Serb minority, they were also affected by that. After 1954 most people were able to return to their birth places.

After 1955 as th Communist Romania and Yugoslavia were seeking better relations with each other the situation of the Serbs in Banat got better (as good as it could get in a Communist country). They were alowed to visit Yugoslavia they had schools teaching in Serbian and the Serb Orthodox Churches were reopen.

In the 80's which was an awful decade they suffered together with the rest of the population and after that they went through the same problems in the transition period. Currently I guess they are about 22.000 Serbs in Romania. Most of them belong to the Serb Orthodox Church but about 1000 are Orthodox Old Believers.
Great story with lots of information. Thanks!
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:07 AM   #15

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Originally Posted by Glowin View Post
Actually no, they didn't use term "national minorities" or "minorities" from certain period. Yugoslavia was home to "narodi i narodnosti", "narodi" being a term for constitutional ethinc groups, those that had republics, while "narodnosti" was a term for those ethnic groups without republic. Magyars and Albanians were "narodnosti" but they HAD autonomous provinces - so they were somewhere in between.

"Narod(i)" means people(s) or nation(s). Narodnost(i) means nationality or ethnicity (according to google translate). They didn't use the term national minority because some "narodnosti" might feel offended or degraded by the status of minority.
I understand. Actually in Romania the official designation was also "nationalitati conlocuitoare" (nationalities living together) as a politically correct term. However after 1989 we reverted back to "national minorities'' and no one complained about it.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:20 AM   #16

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Same thing happened in Yugoslavia
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:32 AM   #17

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As I wrote the Serb mercenaries serving the Wallachian princes were known as Seimeni. Sometimes they were known as Serb seimeni. In 1655 they were not paid and rebelled against the Wallachian prince Matei Basarab.

The rebellion was crushed and the rebel soldiers found refuge believe or not in the Ottoman Empire. They were given permision to settle in Dobruja on the right bank of the Danube. There they established two villages who are still existing Seimeni and Seimenii Mici. The people are Romanian today but they know about their origin.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:30 AM   #18

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Originally Posted by Glowin View Post
Yugoslavia was home to "narodi i narodnosti", "narodi" being a term for constitutional ethinc groups, those that had republics, while "narodnosti" was a term for those ethnic groups without republic.
In Czechoslovakia we used the same terminology but "národnosť" was/is often translated as "national minority" even if it does not rely fit description.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:30 AM   #19

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Originally Posted by Spatar View Post
As I wrote the Serb mercenaries serving the Wallachian princes were known as Seimeni. Sometimes they were known as Serb seimeni. In 1655 they were not paid and rebelled against the Wallachian prince Matei Basarab.

The rebellion was crushed and the rebel soldiers found refuge believe or not in the Ottoman Empire. They were given permision to settle in Dobruja on the right bank of the Danube. There they established two villages who are still existing Seimeni and Seimenii Mici. The people are Romanian today but they know about their origin.
I don't know what "seimeni" means... Will think about it, and if I get the idea what it means, I'll share it with you. And I will definetly look into those villages Very interesting story! Thanks.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:46 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Spatar View Post
As I wrote the Serb mercenaries serving the Wallachian princes were known as Seimeni. Sometimes they were known as Serb seimeni. In 1655 they were not paid and rebelled against the Wallachian prince Matei Basarab.

The rebellion was crushed and the rebel soldiers found refuge believe or not in the Ottoman Empire. They were given permision to settle in Dobruja on the right bank of the Danube. There they established two villages who are still existing Seimeni and Seimenii Mici. The people are Romanian today but they know about their origin.
I would want to add that Serbs and Bulgarians were confused during those times, and both were called "sârbi" ("Serbs"), a part of "Serb" seimeni were in fact Bulgarians, not Serbs.
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