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Old June 4th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #21

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Originally Posted by Grimald View Post
And catholics were not anti-semitic? Then what was the expulsion of the Jews from Spain about? From 1492 to 1876, no Jews were allowed to settle in deeply catholic Spain! And what about anti-protestantism of catholics? Weren't tens of thousands of Huguenottes murdered in catholic France?

Martin Luther said a lot of repulsive things about a lot of people, among them Jews and Sorbian peasants, but also catholics or peasants in general. The conclusion should be that Luther was a rather coarse person who liked to use strong language and who became bitter and resentful in his old days.

Let us not forget that this hatred back then was mainly based on religion and power; we should not mix it up with racial theories of the 19th century.
Well, the Spain thing was more about politics, securing a united country that was divided for centuries.

I agree about Luther though, he was quite spiteful towards a lot of groups and people. I highly doubt that was the norm for the average people back then.
Also, trying to bring up some ancient Germanic (genetic?) hatred for Slavs is a bit of a joke when looking into the actual history and seeing how Germanics and Slavs lived in amongst each other in the same countries peacefully for centuries, with and against each other depending on their over-lord.


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That is myth. Truth is that social class was more important due to socio economic system. That however does not mean there was no ethnic consciousness. There was, based mostly on language. In my home town there are two Baroque churches. Both originally built in Gothic then rebuild heavily. One of them is called "Slovak church" and another one "German church". Town had mixed population (originaly founded by German settlers) and both Slovaks and Germans build and attended their own church. They are only 15m apart:

"German" church:

Click the image to open in full size.

"Slovak" church (dark wall on the right side is German church):

Click the image to open in full size.

Do you think those people did not had national consciousness? How do you explain this then?

There are historical documents from other medieval Slovak towns with mixed population which handle relations of different ethnicities: office of magistrate should be held for 2 weeks by German and for another 2 weeks by Slovak. They were switching office on national basis.

If people in middle ages did not had national consciousness then how on earth communities of ethnic minorities survived all that time? There is only one way: Germans married other Germans despite living surrounded by Slovaks. And how did they knew who is German? Well they had ethnic consciousness, there is no other way to explain it.

Many communities of Germans in Slovakia were isolated from Germany for centuries to the extend that German ethnographers came to study their language because they spoke archaic language which people spoke in region in Germany from which they emigrated and which in their original homeland existed no more.
Come on, that is simply explainable by the language barrier, they had it double to overcome that problem. Just one of those in just German or Slovak would "discriminate" the other side and thus lead to problems in governing them. No need for an ethnic consciousness there but a rather practical solution for a problem.


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It was exception due to Spanish history and specific political situation (Muslim occupation and reqonquista).

Most of the time Catholic Church was among strongest protectors of Jews in Europe.
Aye, the Jewish community was under direct protection for the pope for example and another one would be Pope Clemens VI. who threatened Catholics who took part in anti-jewish progroms with excommunication.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #22

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Come on, that is simply explainable by the language barrier, they had it double to overcome that problem. Just one of those in just German or Slovak would "discriminate" the other side and thus lead to problems in governing them. No need for an ethnic consciousness there but a rather practical solution for a problem.
Indeed. Those churches are in fact a very good example of the pre-national conglomerate monarchy which was prevalent all over Europe in early modern times.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 02:48 AM   #23
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So it seems that I am right that the Nazis had some anti-Slavic policies on political motivated reasons only not racial?

It would be rather stupid to say racial considering that Slavs are Aryans (Indo-European) and many Slavs are "Nordic".
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Old June 4th, 2013, 03:20 AM   #24

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So it seems that I am right that the Nazis had some anti-Slavic policies on political motivated reasons only not racial?
Nazi racism was entirely political. All of it, not just anti-Slavic part.

Also nazi racism was pseudoscience. No wonder it was confusing or contradictory at times. On one hand it was of course based on some real facts but lot of it was simply made up. Often by people with dubious motives.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #25
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Nazi racism was entirely political. All of it, not just anti-Slavic part.

Also nazi racism was pseudoscience. No wonder it was confusing or contradictory at times. On one hand it was of course based on some real facts but lot of it was simply made up. Often by people with dubious motives.
No, some of Nazi racism was racial, like against the Jews, Gypsies and blacks.

I do know that the Nazis were more for the Germanic peoples than any other people of the white race, they considered them the most pure, Germanic peoples are often referred to as the Nordic people but this is not the case since some Celts and Slavs for example are "Nordic". Hitler himself was Nordic-Alpine mix, he was brown hair and blue eyed too but people like Goebbels were dark haired and dark (brown) eyed.

If the Nazis had won the war, what would Europe have even been like? Would everyone really be speaking German as the legend goes?
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Old June 4th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #26

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Come on, that is simply explainable by the language barrier, they had it double to overcome that problem.
There was no language problem, if you mean it as communication barrier. People in these mixed communities were mostly bilingual or at last partly bilingual and besides that, until 17th ct language of administration, church and scholarship was Latin.

Sermons in both of those churches were done in Latin. There is no language reason to have two separate churches. Other than ethnic identity. Of course language plays important role in that identity.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 04:35 AM   #27

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There was no language problem, if you mean it as communication barrier. People in these mixed communities were mostly bilingual or at last partly bilingual and besides that, until 17th ct language of administration, church and scholarship was Latin.

Sermons in both of those churches were done in Latin. There is no language reason to have two separate churches. Other than ethnic identity. Of course language plays important role in that identity.
Exactly, until exactly the time those churches was built the sermons were in Latin and then it changed with Reformation and Counter-Reformation. Sermons were done in the local languages. that's why there are two churches.
The magistrate was doing 2 weeks Slovak and 2 weeks German why when it was done in Latin? Doesn't make any sense, does it?

Any indications for the normal people to have been bilingual? And even if, important business would still have been preferably done in the mothertongue I would say, therefore different churches and magistrates.


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No, some of Nazi racism was racial, like against the Jews, Gypsies and blacks.

I do know that the Nazis were more for the Germanic peoples than any other people of the white race, they considered them the most pure, Germanic peoples are often referred to as the Nordic people but this is not the case since some Celts and Slavs for example are "Nordic". Hitler himself was Nordic-Alpine mix, he was brown hair and blue eyed too but people like Goebbels were dark haired and dark (brown) eyed.

If the Nazis had won the war, what would Europe have even been like? Would everyone really be speaking German as the legend goes?
Read "Fatherland" by Robert Harris, it is a novel but plays in the 70s after Nazi Germany won the war. Gives a good impression of what could have been I thought. It was also made into a movie which is quite decent.

Nazism was racial because the constructors of their ideology needed a 'cause' to rally the people and their own personal issues. There is not much that unifies people like religion and Nazism with it's 'Führerkult' was very much like a religion. At least that's my take on it.

Last edited by bodhi; June 4th, 2013 at 04:40 AM.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 06:44 AM   #28
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Read "Fatherland" by Robert Harris, it is a novel but plays in the 70s after Nazi Germany won the war. Gives a good impression of what could have been I thought. It was also made into a movie which is quite decent.

Nazism was racial because the constructors of their ideology needed a 'cause' to rally the people and their own personal issues. There is not much that unifies people like religion and Nazism with it's 'Führerkult' was very much like a religion. At least that's my take on it.
Wiki:

In the novel, the bedrock of Nazi ideology is still the policy of blaming subversives for social problems. Jews (see anti-Semitism), communists, homosexuals, incest, and interracial relationships (particularly between "Aryans" and Slavs)

But the Nazis didn't even consider Aryans and Slavs separate races, "Foreign peoples" Wiki: mainly due to the Slavs who were not really after the Nazi racial science as a distinct race

I think the Wiki page on the Fatherland is a bit out of context, especially considering I went onto Google Books and typed in "Slavs" and "Slavic" and nothing came up about so called interracial relationships between them and "Aryans" being forbidden.

Nazism was definitely racially motivated, there was huge racial theories for the supreme Aryan master race "Herrenvolk" "Herrenrasse" terms but these seem to be rather uneasy to define since it could mean; Caucasian, white, European, Indo-European, Nordic, Germanic, German.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #29

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Exactly, until exactly the time those churches was built the sermons were in Latin and then it changed with Reformation and Counter-Reformation. Sermons were done in the local languages. that's why there are two churches.
Those churches were build before Reformation (1442 and 1452) and in any case both were Catholic, not Protestant. So Reformation is clearly not the reason for which they were build.

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The magistrate was doing 2 weeks Slovak and 2 weeks German why when it was done in Latin? Doesn't make any sense, does it?
If you do think those people did not had ethnic consciousnesses then it does not make sense.

If of course if there was such consciousnesses then it makes perfect sense.

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Any indications for the normal people to have been bilingual? And even if, important business would still have been preferably done in the mothertongue I would say, therefore different churches and magistrates.
They were living next to each other. Working together, trading, fighting. Those Germans had to know at last little bit of Slovak otherwise they would not survive. There are also lot of borrowings from German in local Slovak dialects so it was true also vice versa.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 01:35 AM   #30

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Originally Posted by AngloSaxon View Post
Wiki:

In the novel, the bedrock of Nazi ideology is still the policy of blaming subversives for social problems. Jews (see anti-Semitism), communists, homosexuals, incest, and interracial relationships (particularly between "Aryans" and Slavs)

But the Nazis didn't even consider Aryans and Slavs separate races, "Foreign peoples" Wiki: mainly due to the Slavs who were not really after the Nazi racial science as a distinct race

I think the Wiki page on the Fatherland is a bit out of context, especially considering I went onto Google Books and typed in "Slavs" and "Slavic" and nothing came up about so called interracial relationships between them and "Aryans" being forbidden.

Nazism was definitely racially motivated, there was huge racial theories for the supreme Aryan master race "Herrenvolk" "Herrenrasse" terms but these seem to be rather uneasy to define since it could mean; Caucasian, white, European, Indo-European, Nordic, Germanic, German.
Didn't read the wiki on the book but I liked it, it is entertaining and shows a very weird europe/world in the 70s (Hitler still being alive and the US president wanting to visit Nazi Germany which more or less rules all of Europe, all Jews are gone but the population believes they weren't killed but only kicked out - main plotline is when an SS officer finds out what actually happened and then ... read yourself). So, if you wanna read something that depicts how the world could have looked after a nazi win, that one id decent enough. It is not a history book (how could it be) but fiction and thus not that accurate on some things.

Yes and no. Racism is a crucial part of nazism, no doubt. But when you look how they switched and twisted it around to fit their other goals (that's why it is so hard to define their actual views on it because it changed all the time, the only constant was the hate for Jews, homosexuals and euthanasia of disabled people) it is quite clear that it was not "the motivation". Their motives were probably as different as their leaders but "will for power" and greed are probably the biggest ones on a personal level and negating Versailles, restore Germany's "greatness", revenge the humilation of WW1, destruction of the (fictional) Jewish-communist conspiracy (and thus the SU) were the motivation on the bigger picture.



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Those churches were build before Reformation (1442 and 1452) and in any case both were Catholic, not Protestant. So Reformation is clearly not the reason for which they were build.
You wrote baroque, baroque started in 16th century. Reformation triggered counter-reformation of the Catholic Church which also introduced sermons in the local languages/dialects.

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If you do think those people did not had ethnic consciousnesses then it does not make sense.

If of course if there was such consciousnesses then it makes perfect sense.
Ockhams's Razor. Language is a simpler and more logical explanation.

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They were living next to each other. Working together, trading, fighting. Those Germans had to know at last little bit of Slovak otherwise they would not survive. There are also lot of borrowings from German in local Slovak dialects so it was true also vice versa.
Sure they did but nevertheless official business people would prefer to do in their own language. Example, Turks here speak German, some better, some worse. Nevertheless German administration offers the possibility in some offices to handle stuff in Turkish.
People back then were more practical and less bureaucratic than today's Germans so common sense tells me they'd do the same or similar.
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