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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:18 PM   #21

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The is a nucleus of truth in most history but in general history depends on interpretation of such facts as are known. First let me give you an example of mythology becoming fact. The Angel of Mons was a fabrication that became reality in the minds of many people in 1915.
Was the destruction of the Assyrians what it was said to be? A constant theme in this forum is finding the truth where possible about an historical event.
To illustrate this look at the current thread on the Charge of the Light Brigade. Those of us taking part have gathered all the information possible and we are still arguing about truth in the action.
The beauty of historical study is finding the truth if it exists. A case in point is a research I did into the Kanaka trade in Queensland at the beginning of the 20th century and why so many died. I pored over the Royal commission and found one small hidden fact that threw part of previous findings into doubt.
So history is fact until a revisionist calls previous beliefs into question.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:25 PM   #22
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The is a nucleus of truth in most history but in general history depends on interpretation of such facts as are known. First let me give you an example of mythology becoming fact. The Angel of Mons was a fabrication that became reality in the minds of many people in 1915.
Was the destruction of the Assyrians what it was said to be? A constant theme in this forum is finding the truth where possible about an historical event.
To illustrate this look at the current thread on the Charge of the Light Brigade. Those of us taking part have gathered all the information possible and we are still arguing about truth in the action.
The beauty of historical study is finding the truth if it exists. A case in point is a research I did into the Kanaka trade in Queensland at the beginning of the 20th century and why so many died. I pored over the Royal commission and found one small hidden fact that threw part of previous findings into doubt.
So history is fact until a revisionist calls previous beliefs into question.
That, my fiend is called adaptation and progress: where one finds a mistake thought to be correct itself or in the context of something already "correct", in order to fix, find the truth and further improve society.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:33 PM   #23

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History is and always will be written by the victor, in whatever way they choose to convey the story. So, the only way really to prove the most difficult questions is to check multiple sources to see if they say the same or at least similar thing.
More or less true but 'is and always' might be too strong a phrase. In regards to the American Civil War more books have been written by southerners than northerners. More books in favor of the 'lost cause' than written by the winners. Note also how northern historians hold Robert E. Lee in high regard.
The U.S. lost the Vietnam war but has produced more books on that war than all other nations combined. Winners often write the history but not always.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #24
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More or less true but 'is and always' might be too strong a phrase. In regards to the American Civil War more books have been written by southerners than northerners. More books in favor of the 'lost cause' than written by the winners. Note also how northern historians hold Robert E. Lee in high regard.
The U.S. lost the Vietnam war but has produced more books on that war than all other nations combined. Winners often write the history but not always.
Often details remain the same, especially with more modern history due to the rise of ideas of neutral scholars. But, the greatest of all is not details but how we perceive the characters: whether they are held in high regard with brilliance, kindness, leadership, etc. Or lesser regard. That's why whenever I read a book on history I end up having scream out, "Too many opinions! Give me facts!" You correct, I did word it wrongly.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:38 PM   #25

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More or less true but 'is and always' might be too strong a phrase. In regards to the American Civil War more books have been written by southerners than northerners. More books in favor of the 'lost cause' than written by the winners. Note also how northern historians hold Robert E. Lee in high regard.
The U.S. lost the Vietnam war but has produced more books on that war than all other nations combined. Winners often write the history but not always.
\
The United States did not lose the Vietnam War. The war was lost by the the nation of The Republic of Vietnam.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:42 PM   #26

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"Adaption" and "progress.". Those are two very powerful words. Irving adapted fact to fit his view of the holocaust. Scarcely progress. I found one small and hidden fact, a fact I believe changed the conclusions of other historians. I did not call all other accounts into question until I had discussed it with my peers to ascertain the importance or otherwise of my findings. One of the problems with history is lazy historians. There are those who rush into print and often rely on the research of previous historians. Too often a consensus grows that one interpretation is the right one because of the frequency with which it is repeated or that it fits the image a country has of the action. Check out Custer's Last Stand. You would get some interesting reactions among some Americans.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #27
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"Adaption" and "progress.". Those are two very powerful words. Irving adapted fact to fit his view of the holocaust. Scarcely progress. I found one small and hidden fact, a fact I believe changed the conclusions of other historians. I did not call all other accounts into question until I had discussed it with my peers to ascertain the importance or otherwise of my findings. One of the problems with history is lazy historians. There are those who rush into print and often rely on the research of previous historians. Too often a consensus grows that one interpretation is the right one because of the frequency with which it is repeated or that it fits the image a country has of the action. Check out Custer's Last Stand. You would get some interesting reactions among some Americans.
Lol - Custer, I'm happy the natives killed him.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 08:12 PM   #28

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Lol - Custer, I'm happy the natives killed him.
Which is probably just as well as I think a few of his soldiers would have happily blown his brains out, not that he had any in the first place. I know he is an American legend and I may be guilty of blasphemy but I am consistent as we in the UK had Cornwallis. No denying Custer is an American legend but the brave soldiers of the Seventh Cavalry paid the ultimate price for his stupidity. Charging headlong into the Confederate ranks against a known foe with similar tactics is one thing but splitting one's command against an enemy whose numbers were unknown and in their own environment was folly of the highest magnitude. Any soldier is only as good as his superior Officer's strategy and tactics allow him to be and Custer let his Command down on both counts.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #29
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Which is probably just as well as I think a few of his soldiers would have happily blown his brains out, not that he had any in the first place. I know he is an American legend and I may be guilty of blasphemy but I am consistent as we in the UK had Cornwallis. No denying Custer is an American legend but the brave soldiers of the Seventh Cavalry paid the ultimate price for his stupidity. Charging headlong into the Confederate ranks against a known foe with similar tactics is one thing but splitting one's command against an enemy whose numbers were unknown and in their own environment was folly of the highest magnitude. Any soldier is only as good as his superior Officer's strategy and tactics allow him to be and Custer let his Command down on both counts.
I'm not a supporter of freedom of speech (since it allows people to be racist and homophobic without punishment) but, that's the law, so say whatever you want man nobody should hate you for making a logical deduction. Indeed, going into battle believing with certainty you are going to win will get you killed. Going into battle thinking that anything can happen and that you must be prepared to change strategy and not rely on your men, will usually hand you a victory.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #30

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There are actually very few 'facts' in history -- although some people seem to believe the know 'the truth'--- just lots of opinions.
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