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Old March 18th, 2014, 04:47 AM   #51
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Alerod, always a trying business coming across folk who contribute zilch but can't resist having a poke!

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Old March 18th, 2014, 01:40 PM   #52
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Thank you, The Gushel. I wish you would tell us more about the Kingdom of Argyll, since you are well-informed on Scottish history. But I do understand somewhat his point of view. He is like the Arthurian afficianadoes who scream bloody murder when others question the most absurd details of that story, or seek to explain them in more reasonable terms. Ragnar is spread out over 95 years. Either you can say he is a figment of imagination, which no one wants to do, or you can seek to explain why this is so. It seems reasonable to suppose that he was more than one person, and some articles say he was up to five people, which in itself is also absurd. It is quite true that Dark Ages history is essentially quicksand. The Royals are clearly uncomfortable with Ivar as an ancestor, and make laughable attempts to plough Jean of Bute under. But when you read their explanations, they are MORE speculation and clearly Dodgy. If it makes people feel better, many say that Ivar did the Blood Eagle on Aelle AFTER he was dead. So he desecrated a corpse. Still nasty, but not as bad. Aelle threw his father into a snakepit, another atrocity. Those were bad times. I only seek to figure Ivar out with my stories, I'm a firm believer that he existed.

Last edited by alarod; March 18th, 2014 at 03:17 PM.
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Old March 18th, 2014, 05:34 PM   #53
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RAGNAR SEALS HIS FATE: "What do you mean, you will not come out raiding any more?" cried Ragnar angrily to his sons. Ubbe wordlessly handed him a scroll with runes, which Ragnar read frowning. "It is the edict of King Horik, father," explained Ubbe. "You create international incidents when you raid Neustria, now Horik is angry. We dare not forfeit our lands by disobeying his will." "Oh, flock of sheep!" sneered Ragnar. "Are we Franks now, to follow the whim of the priest-loving popinjay in Roskilde? Who does he think he is, Charlemagne? Well, I shall raid anyway!" "Father, you are too old!" objected Ivar. "Oh, do you contradict me, you great giant of a man, you!" cried Ragnar, slapping his hand. Ivar miserably sat down. "Anyways," continued Ragnar. "You just seek to overshadow me with your own raids, you are jealous!" "Father, we fear for your safety!" cried Halfdan. "Well, sit here and fret like women then!" said Ragnar. "I am going to get some plunder!" Ragnar stalked out, leaving his sons to look at each other in perplexity. "Bloody-minded old man," muttered Ivar.

Last edited by alarod; March 18th, 2014 at 06:48 PM.
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Old March 18th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #54
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And all of this has what to do with Ivar the Boneless?
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Old March 18th, 2014, 06:51 PM   #55
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Toyomotor: To translate, Ragnar became jealous of his sons' prowess at raiding and undertook a last raid of England when he was old. He was captured by King Aella and thrown into a snakepit, thus dying. Ivar the Boneless and his brothers then came to England and wreaked terrible vengeance upon Aella. This is all in the Saga.
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Old March 18th, 2014, 07:27 PM   #56
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For those who are interested, if you want to quickly read the synopsized information that the story of Ivar the Boneless is based on, the easiest way to read it is to go to the Wiki articles on Ragnar Lodbrok, Ivar the Boneless, Horik I and Horik II. There are many other things to read as well, but this will explain a lot of the information.
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Old March 18th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alarod View Post
There is much confusion over Ivar's famous father, Ragnar Lodbrok. If we are to believe the Sagas, Ragnar's career stretched over ninety years, clearly impossible....
Why is that "impossible" ?

Last edited by Sindane; March 18th, 2014 at 07:59 PM.
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Old March 18th, 2014, 08:29 PM   #58
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Sindane: Because people rarely lived past their forties in that era. A ninety-five year old man could not sail out on a last raid, nor would a ninety-five year old man be thrown into a snakepit. Ragnar could not have been killed by Aella any other time except the 860s, because Aella only ruled Northumbria in the 860s, not any time before. Yet a commonly cited "birth date" for Ragnar is on the order of 765. This is possible if a grandfather named Ragnar was born around then. But the Ragnar we are discussing was more likely born around 800 if he died in 863 or so. It is possible that this could have happened to a man in his sixties. Ivar the Boneless is also given a ridiculously early birth date, sometimes 770. He did not revenge his father when he was in his seventies or eighties, so he and his brothers were most likely born in the 830s. You cannot get around the years of Aella's actual reign, so it had to be that way. Our Ragnar was clearly a jarl, not a king. But Sigurd Ring, Ragnar's "father" lived in the middle of the 700s. which is possible if his son King Ragnar was also born in the 700s. Therefore the most likely solution is that there were two separate Ragnars, a King and a Jarl. This doesn't seem farfetched, most historians say that there were at least two Ragnars, maybe more.
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Old March 18th, 2014, 11:11 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alarod View Post
Sindane: Because people rarely lived past their forties in that era. A ninety-five year old man could not sail out on a last raid, nor would a ninety-five year old man be thrown into a snakepit. Ragnar could not have been killed by Aella any other time except the 860s, because Aella only ruled Northumbria in the 860s, not any time before. Yet a commonly cited "birth date" for Ragnar is on the order of 765. This is possible if a grandfather named Ragnar was born around then. But the Ragnar we are discussing was more likely born around 800 if he died in 863 or so. It is possible that this could have happened to a man in his sixties. Ivar the Boneless is also given a ridiculously early birth date, sometimes 770. He did not revenge his father when he was in his seventies or eighties, so he and his brothers were most likely born in the 830s. You cannot get around the years of Aella's actual reign, so it had to be that way. Our Ragnar was clearly a jarl, not a king. But Sigurd Ring, Ragnar's "father" lived in the middle of the 700s. which is possible if his son King Ragnar was also born in the 700s. Therefore the most likely solution is that there were two separate Ragnars, a King and a Jarl. This doesn't seem farfetched, most historians say that there were at least two Ragnars, maybe more.
Peoples birthdates can be mistranscribed or lied about. They might have lived longer than us. They might have been healthier. All those old skeletons on the TV often look to have better teeth than we do ! Mind you everyone alive has better teeth than we do here
He could have still been swinging an axe around in his 80s for all we know . Chopping snakes heads off to the bitter end. Maybe big massive snakes in the pit swallowed him and crushed his bones like swallowing an egg, hence the name
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Old March 18th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #60

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Maybe his bones were incredibly tough.
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