Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 25th, 2014, 04:43 AM   #81
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 31

Hi again!

Previously somewhat of a bloodline has been discussed, with several uncertainties involved. Hrolf Kraki is, like Harald “Wartooth”, not directly in the bloodline, but close enough. The story of Hrolf Kraki is intriguing:

Hrólfr Kraki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“When Helgo after many years returned to Thurø, Thora avenged her lost virginity by sending Urse to Helgo who, unknowingly raped his own daughter. This resulted in Roluo, who was a gifted man, both physically and intellectually and as brave as he was tall.”

“A young man named Wigg was impressed with Roluo's bodily size and gave him the cognomen Krage, which meant a tall tree trunk used as a ladder. Roluo liked this name and rewarded Wigg with a heavy bracelet. Wigg, then, swore to Roluo to avenge him, if he was killed.”

The story of Hrolf Kraki implies a very close relationship between his parents. For sure, this can have contributed to his odd appearances. Resembling the old kind of “ladder” having just one post. As previously cited he was also “a gifted man, both physically and intellectually”:

h2g2 - Marfan Syndrome - Edited Entry

“Unlike many genetic anomalies, Marfan Syndrome does not adversely affect intelligence. On the contrary, these people are often bright and charismatic.”

Marfan syndrome: neuropsychological aspects. [Am J Med Genet. 1988] - PubMed - NCBI

“We found average intellectual (mean full scale IQ = 109.3)”

Again, several uncertainties are involved in this discussion.
grendel is offline  
Remove Ads
Old July 26th, 2014, 06:27 AM   #82
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 31

Hi again!

It would help if someone responded to my posts, and came up with ideas… Anyway, previously Ivar “the Wide Fathom” was mentioned. Similar to his descendant Halfdan of “Of the Wide Embrace”, the brother (or half-brother ) of the Boneless and Snake-in-the-Eye, the nicknames may be ambiguous.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivar_Vidfamne"]Ivar Vidfamne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

“Ivar Vidfamne (or Ívarr inn víðfaðmi; English [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym"]exonym[/ame] Ivar Widefathom) was a Swedish king hailing from Scania. He may have died c. 700.”

“Because of his harsh rule, many Swedes fled west and populated Värmland

“he gave his daughter Auðr the Deep-Minded”

In the Footsteps of Ivarr the Boneless

“Led by Ivarr and his brothers Halfdan 'of the wide embrace' and Ubbi, this was the first Viking invasion of the British mainland aimed at conquest rather than pillage. Its impact was devastating.”

In case of Videfamne, it may reflect Wide-Famous in an ironic way. The same is probably true for the Wide Embrace of Halfdan, in the “Great Heathen Army”. Moreover, the nickname Wide Fathom may reflect the big kingdom of Ivar. But is there another possibility, yet how trivial it may seem:

May the wing-span of Ivar and Halfdan have been long compared to the rest of their body, pushing the ironic touch of the Wide Fathom and Embrace even further?:

Marfan Syndrome ? AAPOS

”Persons with Marfan syndrome may also demonstrate an arm-span-to-height ratio greater than 1.05.”

Again, many uncertainties are involved in this discussion, but don’t hesitate to respond. The trivial nature of the long "wing-span" perhaps will make someone respond?
grendel is offline  
Old July 26th, 2014, 08:01 AM   #83
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 31

Hi again!

Not much of response to my posts... Alarod, again thanks for your genealogy. The famous Hrothgar of the Beowulf-story is also one of the sons Halfdan "The tall". Hrothgar is probably in the blood-line previously discussed:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrothgar"]Hrothgar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Halfdan is busy “campaigning” in Sweden fighting Aun the Old, while Hrothgar seems to take care of business in Lethra (Lejre). If the previously mentioned blood-line discussed is relevant, the genes of Halfdan “The Tall” should be traceable in Sweden.

The daughter Elan of Halfdan “The Tall” Frodasons has a possible son Ottar Vendelkraku. Thus, Ottar is a possible sister-son to Hrothgar:

Pedigree: Elan (Queen) of SCILFLING

Again, the uncertainties in all genealogy must be dealt with. For instance, in the nickname Vendelkraku seems to have been used for the father of Othere (Ottar) as well:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongentheow"]Ongentheow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

“he was called Egil Vendelcrow (Vendilcraca/Vendilkráka, a name traditionally given to those living at the royal estate of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendel"]Vendel[/ame] in Sweden). [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson"]Snorri Sturluson[/ame], however, gave the name Vendelcrow to Egil's son Ottar ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohthere"]Ohthere[/ame]). In these sources, Egil was the son of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aun"]Aun the Old[/ame], and like him, not very warlike.”

There are all sorts of stories about the nickname Vendelkraku. We have just learned that the name is traditionally given to those living in the royal estate traditionally of Vendel, Sweden. Another story tells that a Ottar lost a war in Vendel (Denmark), and a crow (a figure of a crow out of wood) was sent home to the people of Ottar, instead of his body:

Ottar "Vendel-crow" Egilsson King of Uppsala

Further, and retrospective explanation-myth has been discussed, as well as, non-Christian believes of Vendland-women becoming queens of Sweden may have been used in political propaganda by later kings:

Alternativ tolkning av "vendelkråka"

However, one may also find that Hrolf Krake (kraki) is discussed in the previous link (in Swedish, you may try Google translate). Thus, the nicknames like kraku and kraki may reflect the looks of both Ottar and Hrolf.

I am not sure if these sagas makes the uncertainties of the discussion even worse, regardless of the those in the genealogy!

Last edited by grendel; July 26th, 2014 at 08:27 AM.
grendel is offline  
Old July 29th, 2014, 01:15 AM   #84
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 31


Not much of response to my posts… Alarod, the genealogy you provided can be extended to Ireland as well, besides Sweden. The descendants of Halfdan the Tall Frodason got there as well. As previously shown the Marfan Syndrome includes eye-problems and scoliosis. Do the descendants of Ragnar Lodbrok in England and Ireland have nicknames that can indicate that disorder? As shown below one person may have eye-problems, while two possibly (at least one) have crocked back. Alternative interpretations are provided as well. One person has something that can be interpreted as Iron-knee (Jarnkne), whatever that might have been. Perhaps something that could have made the life of Ivar the Boneless easier?

My Medieval Genealogy: Sihtric Caoch Sigtryggr Gale

“In some places Sigtryggr Halfdansson is listed as the son of his uncle Ivar the Boneless, but since his surname is Halfdannson, it is more likely that his father was Halfdan White Shirt, King of Dublin who died 877.”

Sitric Cáech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“Sitric Cáech or Sihtric Cáoch (Old Norse: Sigtryggr; Old Irish: cáoch or cáech means "one-eyed") was a Norse King of Dublin who later reigned as King of York. He was a grandson of Ímar. In 888 he killed his brother Sicfrith.[1] He belonged to the Uí Ímair or House of Ivar.

Amlaíb Cuarán - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“Amlaíb mac Sitric (c. 927 – 981; Old Norse: Óláfr Sigtryggsson), commonly called Amlaíb Cuarán, in Old Norse: Óláfr kváran, was a 10th-century Norse-Gael who was King of Northumbria and Dublin. His byname, cuarán, is usually translated as "sandal".”

“Amlaíb's byname, cuarán, is usually translated as "sandal" or "shoe". It derives from the Old Irish word cúar meaning bent or crooked. It is first applied to him in the report of the battle of Slane in 947 in the Annals of Ulster. The usual translation may be misleading. The epithet probably refers to a distinctive style of footwear.”

“Whether this Ímar is to be identified with Ivar the Boneless, the leader of the Great Heathen Army, is rather less certain, although at the same time not unlikely.”

“In the early 960s Amlaíb Cuarán probably faced a challenge from the sons of his cousin Amlaíb mac Gofrith. In 960 the Annals of Ulster report that Cammán, son of Amlaíb mac Gofrith, was defeated at an unidentifiable place named Dub. Two years later one Sitriuc Cam—Cam means crooked or twisted and Cammán is simply the hypocoristic form of this byname, so that Sitriuc Cam and Cammán are presumed to be the same person”

Glúniairn (died 989), in Old Norse Járnkné, was a Norse-Gael king of Dublin of the Uí Ímair kindred which ruled over much of the Scandinavianised and Norse-Gael parts of Great Britain and Ireland in the tenth century.

Again, the genealogy contains uncertainties.
grendel is offline  
Old July 29th, 2014, 02:43 AM   #85
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 31

Hi again!

Well, feel free to comment my posts. The descendants of Haldan the Tall Frodason obviously made it to Sweden and Ireland. What about Norway? Alarod, in the genealogy you provided I extended it to Sweden in a previous post. Along the bloodline we find Inge the Elder:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inge_the_Elder"]Inge the Elder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

“All skeletons that are likely to be that of Inge are very tall, about two meters in length, suggesting that Snorri's description was accurate.”

Alarod, what about extending the bloodlines to Norway? Let’s check the ancestors of Inge the Hunchback:

RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Entangled Strands: The Root Bound Ancestry of Iver Iverson

One finds that Inge the Hunchback is son-daughter-son to Inge the Elder.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inge_I_of_Norway"]Inge I of Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

“Inge Haraldsson ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse_language"]Old Norse[/ame]: Ingi Haraldsson) (1135 – 3 February 1161) was king of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway"]Norway[/ame] from 1136 to 1161. Inge’s reign fell within the start of the period known in Norwegian history as the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_era_in_Norway"]civil war era[/ame]. He was never the sole ruler of the country. He is often known as Inge the Hunchback (Inge Krokrygg), because of his physical disability.”

Inge was the only legitimate son of king [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_IV_of_Norway"]Harald Gille[/ame] by his wife, Ingiríðr Ragnvaldsdóttir.

“he had a hump both on his back and his breast. He was of cheerful conversation, and friendly towards his friends; was generous, and allowed other chiefs to give him counsel in governing the country. He was popular, therefore, with the public; and all this brought the kingdom and the mass of the people on his side”

“Inge’s infirmity stemmed from having been carried into battle by one of his guardians during a battle in 1137: “...his back was knotted into a hump, and the one foot was shorter than the other; and he was besides so infirm that he could scarcely walk as long as he lived.s:Heimskringla/Saga of Sigurd, Inge, and Eystein, the Sons of Harald#Of Sigurd Slembidjakn. The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark"]Danish[/ame] chronicler [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxo_Grammaticus"]Saxo Grammaticus[/ame] offers the alternative explanation that he became a hunchback after having been dropped on the floor by a maid during infancy.”

In the present context one may consider another possibility for Inge’s condition.
grendel is offline  
Old July 31st, 2014, 05:27 AM   #86
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 31


Let’s now look at the intermarriages’ between the Scilfings, Scyldings and Ynglings. Regardless of any syndrome involved, one starts to figure about if these dynastic constellations are being healthy… Anyway, we just learned that the daughter of Halfdan The Tall, Elan, had possible son Othere (Ottar Vendelcracu). And now the intrigue gets interesting. When Yrsa found out that she had slept with her own father and given birth to Hrolf Kraki, she got enough of it and moved to Sweden and married Eadgils. They had a son Östen. Not surprisingly his son Ingvar got the nickname “The Tall”. He even got a second nickname, in this case Harre. It is sometimes translated into “the Hoary”. That does not make much of sense does it?

Harr - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

“now dialectal, England: an upright to which hinges are fastened and from which a door or gate swings”

”akin to Old Norse hjarri”

Harre Meaning and Definition

”A hinge.”

Well, it seems that this guy Ingvar the Tall, Harre, had some interesting features in context discussed.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eadgils"]Eadgils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

“[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf"]Beowulf[/ame] and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse"]Old Norse[/ame] sources present him as the son of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohthere"]Ohthere[/ame] and as belonging to the ruling [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngling"]Yngling[/ame] (Scylfing) [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty"]dynasty[/ame].”

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eysteinn"]Eysteinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

“Eysteinn (Swedish: Östen; died ca 600) was the son of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eadgils"]Eadgils[/ame] and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yrsa"]Yrsa[/ame] of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxony"]Saxony[/ame]. He was the father of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar"]Ingvar[/ame].”

“[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson"]Snorri Sturluson[/ame] relates that Eysteinn ruled Sweden at the time when Hrólf Kraki died in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lejre"]Lejre[/ame]. It was a troubled time when many sea kings ravaged the Swedish shores.”

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yrsa"]Yrsa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar"]Ingvar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

“His son Yngvar, nicknamed the Hoary, was killed by the inhabitants while campaigning on an island in the Baltic called Ösel.”

All results for Ynglingaätten in All Collections - MyHeritage

Ingvar (yngvar) "den Långe"/the Tall" Östensson Av Ynglingaätten Harre Småkung I Svealand
grendel is offline  
Old August 3rd, 2014, 04:06 AM   #87
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 31


Well, just by having a nickname like the “Hunchback” like king Inge of Norway does not automatically make this person a Marfan:

What about Richard III “the Hunchback”, the last king of the Plantagenets. Note that one makes the statement that the scoliosis is not coupled to Marfan Syndrom:


Well, what dynasty got rid of Richard III “the Hunchback”? And here the story may get somewhat ironic. For sure, all genealogy contains uncertainties. For instance, in Denmark most people can trace their roots back to Gorm “the Old” (it should be noted that he is most likely not a member of the Scylding clane). Anyway, since I don’t get much of response to my posts you can do some homework. Alarod, can you sort this out, please? Trace the dynasty that ended the Plantagenets back in time as far as you can…
grendel is offline  
Old August 28th, 2015, 08:09 PM   #88
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Texas
Posts: 1

Ivar inn Beinlaust (lausi, lauss) "The Boneless"
Using the Old Norse English Dictionary & The German-English Dictionary, We find:
German-Bein is Bone or Leg
-Laust is Lice
-Lausi is Cooti
-Therefore Beinlaust (remember the Adjective comes before the Noun in English)
would be Lice of the bone or leg
Beinlausi would be Cooties of the bone or leg
Beinlauss not found in German Dictionary
Old Norse-Bein is bone or ivory (not the hallow bones of the arms & legs that is Leggr)
but bone or ivory suitable for carving or weapons
-Lauss is free, untheathered, unerestricted, loose or "Limber"
-(the word for Boneless is Bologaraland)
- lausi & laust not found Old Norse Dictionary
Conclusion:Ivar inn beinlauss would be Ivar the Free (Limber) Bone.
RWS is offline  
Old December 21st, 2016, 07:02 PM   #89
Joined: Dec 2016
From: Appalachian Mountains
Posts: 1

Originally Posted by alarod View Post
Ivar had four sons, so how could he be impotent? His wife was probably a very large woman though. None of Ivar's sons were described as being particularly fat, so Ivar probably had an eating disorder. He probably got leprosy from handling contaminated food. The story says that as long as the magical cow mooed, the sons of Ragnar could not beat Eystein Beli. They tried shooting its eyes out with arrows, but still it mooed. Finally, four very strong Vikings carried Ivar close to the cow on a large iron shield and launched him through the air. Ivar landed on the cow, killing it instantly. This is why I believe he must have been extremely fat, to crush a cow. If he couldn't walk later in life, it's because he got too fat to walk. Ivar probably ate the equivalent of a cow each night for dinner. What I said above is the actual story, you can't make this stuff up. It's sad he got leprosy. The "cow" could have been a wooden replica with a cow's head with a priest inside mooing. In this case, when Ivar crushed the wooden cow, he also killed the priest inside.
I know this is old but misinformation can't just keep being put out there as fact.

Ragnar had 4 children. Ivar had 1 son, AFAIK. Ancestry.com backs that up, as well.

Family of Ivar + RAGNARSSON
TRP19430 is offline  

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

curious, ivar, the boneless

Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"1776" - Robot Chicken parody of "300" naylor182 American History 21 October 17th, 2010 07:56 AM
"Lost Worlds: The Roman Empire-Timgad, North Africa," RonPrice Ancient History 0 December 12th, 2008 01:15 AM
"Only strong personalities can endure history, the weak ones are extinguished by it" - FW Nietzsche Basileus Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 0 December 6th, 2007 05:14 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.