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Old June 12th, 2017, 03:51 AM   #1121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robto View Post
The Waffen-SS was a formidable fighting force, the best military organisation that fought during the Second World War and they had absolutely nothing to do with the "bad SS" that commited genocide and war crimes....
That the Waffen-SS was a formidable fighting force in WWII seems reasonable by any metric, think they encompassed 900000 members at a time. As for "best" it depends on what people mean, it was umbrella organization for all kinds of foreign collaborators, conscripted ethnic Germans outside Germany, prisoners of war and so on, many of the more exotic units had little combat value. When people talk about best they generally mean "the real Waffen-SS" Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking etc, these crack units had a excellent reputation, regularly serving as the spearheads in critical operations.
While it's been argued they had little to do with war crimes it was branded as criminal organization from the start and with very limited success.
Actually it seems to me that the more successful myth was that the Waffen-SS did all the bad things while Wehrmacht just fought the war.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #1122

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Originally Posted by Edric Streona View Post
Many. The most persistent are.
1) the Boers were difficult to beat and outfought the British.
2) the British started the war to take the Transvaal and OFS gold.
3) the British invented concentrations camps were they then starved Boer children to death.
4) they did 3 because they couldn't win.
5) the Boers were out numbered.

In short all of the above is widely held and believed but most of it was rewritten by left wing anti imperial historians in the U.K. Or Afrikaans apartheid government propaganda.

1) the Boers proved to be terrible troops. Blundering about, being defeated frequently and panicking and running away. They lacked all discipline and were far to independent minded to take orders. They were best at robbing civilians. Killing natives.

2) the whole war was concocted by Kruger and his Transvaal Dutch supremesists. They forced it to happen in the belief they could force the British out of South Africa. The British had tried to avoid war and were completely confident they could talk the Boers down. 95% percent of the gold mines were owned by private British, French or German citizens anyway so not available as plunder. Kruger DID want to take the Natal diamond fields though.

3) concentration camps were being used by the US and Spain at the same time. Boer camps were not that bad. Most of the deaths were due to malnutrition caused by Boers punishing other Boers and leaving them to cross South Africa with nothing to eat. Some of the biggest lies are told about these camps.

4) the Boers had proven useless. Were beaten outright in the first year of the war due to terrible leadership and poor, lazy soldiering.

5) the Boers vastly outnumbered the British in the opening phases of the war. Some 80 000 Boers were ready (or forced into being ready t) fight. Britain had ibthink between 10-20 000 troops to protect the whole of South Africa in the first stages of the war.
Understood your point now. Thanks.
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Old June 12th, 2017, 10:55 AM   #1123

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edric Streona View Post
Many. The most persistent are.
1) the Boers were difficult to beat and outfought the British.
2) the British started the war to take the Transvaal and OFS gold.
3) the British invented concentrations camps were they then starved Boer children to death.
4) they did 3 because they couldn't win.
5) the Boers were out numbered.

In short all of the above is widely held and believed but most of it was rewritten by left wing anti imperial historians in the U.K. Or Afrikaans apartheid government propaganda.

1) the Boers proved to be terrible troops. Blundering about, being defeated frequently and panicking and running away. They lacked all discipline and were far to independent minded to take orders. They were best at robbing civilians. Killing natives.

2) the whole war was concocted by Kruger and his Transvaal Dutch supremesists. They forced it to happen in the belief they could force the British out of South Africa. The British had tried to avoid war and were completely confident they could talk the Boers down. 95% percent of the gold mines were owned by private British, French or German citizens anyway so not available as plunder. Kruger DID want to take the Natal diamond fields though.

3) concentration camps were being used by the US and Spain at the same time. Boer camps were not that bad. Most of the deaths were due to malnutrition caused by Boers punishing other Boers and leaving them to cross South Africa with nothing to eat. Some of the biggest lies are told about these camps.

4) the Boers had proven useless. Were beaten outright in the first year of the war due to terrible leadership and poor, lazy soldiering.

5) the Boers vastly outnumbered the British in the opening phases of the war. Some 80 000 Boers were ready (or forced into being ready t) fight. Britain had ibthink between 10-20 000 troops to protect the whole of South Africa in the first stages of the war.
Very interesting summary, thanks for that
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