Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > General History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

General History General History Forum - General history questions and discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 4th, 2015, 03:01 AM   #1
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
From: Pomerium
Posts: 557
Treatments of family members of individuals commiting high treason


Once A convicted of high treason, A's family members facing punishment collectively irrespective of complicity, such practice existed in many cultures.
The severities of punishment varied from culture to culture, regime to regime.
Could you help give a rundown on the spectrum of the severities different cultures were accustomed to?

Last edited by Fenestella; November 4th, 2015 at 03:34 AM.
Fenestella is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 4th, 2015, 06:42 AM   #2
Suspended until October 11th, 2018
 
Joined: Jan 2015
From: meo
Posts: 1,309

Nobunaga killed his traitorous brother but Richard the Lion Heart didnt do the same with John. Richard himself also rebelled against his father but was spared (his brothers were not that lucky).

Last edited by A Vietnamese; November 4th, 2015 at 06:48 AM.
A Vietnamese is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 06:44 AM   #3
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Mar 2014
From: Canterbury
Posts: 8,881
Blog Entries: 2

Feudal societies didn't normally allow an individual's physical punishment to go beyond the individual, as his next-of-kin would still inherit unless the title was forfeited as part of the sentence. If the title was forfeited, they would go to the courts of other dynasts whose titles weren't, or if there were none flee the realm.

Quote:
Nobunaga killed his traitorous brother but Richard the Lion Heart didnt do the same with John. Richard himself also rebelled against his father but was spared (his brothers were not that lucky)
It was very rare for a vassal to be executed for rebellion in medieval England or Scotland. Especially one with such high status, so close to royalty. Plus it was taboo to be a kinslayer.

Last edited by Domhnall Balloch; November 4th, 2015 at 06:48 AM.
Domhnall Balloch is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 06:49 AM   #4
Suspended until October 11th, 2018
 
Joined: Jan 2015
From: meo
Posts: 1,309

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domhnall Balloch View Post
Feudal societies didn't normally allow an individual's physical punishment to go beyond the individual, as his next-of-kin would still inherit unless the title was forfeited as part of the sentence. If the title was forfeited, they'd go to the courts of other dynasts whose titles were not, or if there were none flee the realm.

It was very rare for a vassal to be executed for rebellion in medieval England or Scotland. Especially one with such high status, so close to royalty. Plus it was taboo to be a kinslayer.
But Harold killed his traitorous brother (Tosig something) in battle so I am not sure what exactly Harold would do should he capture his brother alive.

Oh, right! I know a Vietnamese case about this. Trịnh Sâm, king of Trịnh Dynasty, let Trịnh Cán (his 4 years old son) to become the heir. Trịnh Tông, his eldest son, felt betrayed so he rebelled against his father. But the rebel was put down immediately. Trịnh Sâm wanted to execute Trịnh Tông but his courtiers shifted the blame on themselves so Trịnh Sâm only stripped Trịnh Tông most of his properties, place him at the bottom of the throne inherit list and killed almost every courtiers of Trịnh Tông.

Which was a wrong decision because right after Trịnh Sâm died of sickness, Trịnh Tông killed Trịnh Cán and name himself the king of Trịnh Dynasty. Yeah, you should totally execute all of them traitors (and their family too, also their dog and their goldenfish).

Last edited by A Vietnamese; November 4th, 2015 at 07:01 AM.
A Vietnamese is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 06:55 AM   #5
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Mar 2014
From: Canterbury
Posts: 8,881
Blog Entries: 2

The Saxon English are a little different, as they essentially had a feudal society but retained strong tribal elements more forgiving of kin-murder amid violent disagreement. Tostig could've wound up dead or alive. Probably alive but under lock and key, like Curthose did, as Harold couldn't afford to lose his other brothers' support.

Last edited by Domhnall Balloch; November 4th, 2015 at 06:58 AM.
Domhnall Balloch is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 08:01 AM   #6

Spikey's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Jul 2015
From: Netherlands
Posts: 892

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domhnall Balloch View Post
Feudal societies didn't normally allow an individual's physical punishment to go beyond the individual, as his next-of-kin would still inherit unless the title was forfeited as part of the sentence. If the title was forfeited, they would go to the courts of other dynasts whose titles weren't, or if there were none flee the realm.

It was very rare for a vassal to be executed for rebellion in medieval England or Scotland. Especially one with such high status, so close to royalty. Plus it was taboo to be a kinslayer.
I think that in medieval French and Occitan territories, noble traitors were often killed. However, extending such punishment to family members was a violation of custom it seems, because contemporaries or near-contemporaries recording such events strongly disapproved of it when it did happen.

As an example; when Aimery de Montréal betrayed Simon IV de Montfort for a second time, he fled to his sister, Giraude de Laurac, lady of Lavaur. Aimery was one of the most important nobles of the Toulousain / Lauragais, but after Lavaur was succesfully besieged, he was immediately executed like a very common criminal; the gallows. This instead of the noble treatment you'd expect. Per customs of those times, the entire garrison was also killed. But then, Simon did something remarkable; he had Giraude executed as well; he had her thrown into a well, and stones were put on top of her until her screaming stopped. All other noble ladies were treated well (except for heretics ripe for the stake). I must say, it is actually a mystery exactly why Giraude was put to death; maybe it was not because she was simply Aimery's sister, but because she was leading the garrison / siege defense herself, and thereby was partially treated as a soldier.
Spikey is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 08:15 AM   #7

royal infanta's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2013
From: United States
Posts: 1,493
Blog Entries: 1

Well, theoretically and in some cases, that was entirely true that the punishment was just laid upon the individual. However, in cases of high treason in England, the punishment, included forfeiture of all goods (land, money, etc), so for instance in the case of Sir Thomas More (who tried to go around the law so it wouldn't affect his family but it didn't work), in addition to beheading, all his goods were confiscated which affected his family.
royal infanta is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 04:49 PM   #8
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
From: Pomerium
Posts: 557

Is the Távora affair the extreme case in recorded European history?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1vora_affair

"The Távoras denied all charges but were eventually sentenced to death. Their estates were confiscated by the crown, their palace in Lisbon destroyed and its soil salted, their name erased from the peerage and their coat-of-arms outlawed. The original sentence ordered execution of entire families, including women and children..."
Fenestella is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 05:31 PM   #9
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
From: Pomerium
Posts: 557

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft

"Heinrich Himmler told a meeting of Gauleiters in Posen that he would 'introduce absolute responsibility of kin... a very old custom practiced among our forefathers.' According to Himmler, this practice had existed among the ancient Teutons...'This man has committed treason; his blood is bad; there is traitor's blood in him; that must be wiped out. And in the blood feud the entire clan was wiped out down to the last member..."

What ancient Teuton tradition is he referring to? Was it a codified practice?
Fenestella is offline  
Old November 4th, 2015, 05:59 PM   #10
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Mar 2014
From: Canterbury
Posts: 8,881
Blog Entries: 2

Quote:
Is the Távora affair the extreme case in recorded European history?
Certainly not the most extreme, but clearly an outlier.

Usually a rebellious noble (in the medieval, at least) would suffer little ill-consequence. Less often (moreso in the case of actual treason) they'd be executed and/or have lands confiscated. Rarely the punishment would extend to their sons or brothers, and very rarely it reached women and female children.

The worst instances in European history are probably attempts by the Scottish crown to cut off 'root and branch' several clans, like the MacGregors and Chattans. Their efforts amount to clear-cut cases of democide, with the leaders hung, the men reduced to outlawry, the women branded and transported, and the children kidnapped.

Last edited by Domhnall Balloch; November 4th, 2015 at 06:02 PM.
Domhnall Balloch is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > General History

Tags
commiting, family, high, individuals, members, treason, treatments



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you have any ancestors or family members who served in any wars? Emperor Trajan War and Military History 130 March 10th, 2014 02:15 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.