Heinlein, Starship Troopers - Page 9 - Historum

Glanton · February 28th, 2011, 12:28 PM

Doesn't Johnny Rico, at one point, while undergoing officer training, make the very matter-of-fact statement that he's discovered that all wars throughout history - and without exception - have been caused by population pressure? I think he says something to that effect. Even as a kid, and an ardent reader of sci-fi, I always thought that was a pretty extreme theory. Nowadays it makes me wonder, if that's the kind of education that Johnny is getting, just how rigorous the academic standards are in the Terran Federation.

**OpanaPointer** · February 28th, 2011, 12:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Glanton

Doesn't Johnny Rico, at one point, while undergoing officer training, make the very matter-of-fact statement that he's discovered that all wars throughout history - and without exception - have been caused by population pressure? I think he says something to that effect. Even as a kid, and an ardent reader of sci-fi, I always thought that was a pretty extreme theory. Nowadays it makes me wonder, if that's the kind of education that Johnny is getting, just how rigorous the academic standards are in the Terran Federation.

I don't remember that one, but Heinlein could have been referring to Malthus.

**Charlie Bravo** · February 28th, 2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glanton

Doesn't Johnny Rico, at one point, while undergoing officer training, make the very matter-of-fact statement that he's discovered that all wars throughout history - and without exception - have been caused by population pressure? I think he says something to that effect. Even as a kid, and an ardent reader of sci-fi, I always thought that was a pretty extreme theory. Nowadays it makes me wonder, if that's the kind of education that Johnny is getting, just how rigorous the academic standards are in the Terran Federation.

He does indeed assert this position, and goes on to suggest that any sentient species in the Galaxy encountering the other must attempt to exterminate the other. His theory is that any species that's managed to balance population pressure against the instinct to fight and becomes peaceful will be destroyed upon contact with a more aggressive, and expansive sentient culture. Heinlien presents a very stark and aggressive view of not only human but sentient existence in the Universe.

Tennenbaum · February 28th, 2011, 08:39 PM

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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer

But you have to learn French.

I will use my paid month vacation to study

Tennenbaum · February 28th, 2011, 08:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Charlie Bravo

He does indeed assert this position, and goes on to suggest that any sentient species in the Galaxy encountering the other must attempt to exterminate the other. His theory is that any species that's managed to balance population pressure against the instinct to fight and becomes peaceful will be destroyed upon contact with a more aggressive, and expansive sentient culture. Heinlien presents a very stark and aggressive view of not only human but sentient existence in the Universe.

His view is certainly backed up by biology on this planet. How it might take into account extraterrestrial life... who knows.

Glanton · March 1st, 2011, 05:03 AM

Well, maybe I need to study this theory more to see if I can understand its tenets. So Heinlein is arguing - or more properly the teacher-figures within the novel are arguing - that whereas commanders and rulers might often believe they are waging war for all manner of reasons - religion, personal glory, political/ideological differences - the underlying reason, which they may not even be consciously aware of, is population pressure, a kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest in search of land and resources?

**Charlie Bravo** · March 1st, 2011, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glanton

Well, maybe I need to study this theory more to see if I can understand its tenets. So Heinlein is arguing - or more properly the teacher-figures within the novel are arguing - that whereas commanders and rulers might often believe they are waging war for all manner of reasons - religion, personal glory, political/ideological differences - the underlying reason, which they may not even be consciously aware of, is population pressure, a kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest in search of land and resources?

Yes, you pretty much nailed it. Heinlien further asserts that

"a scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individuals instinct to survive-and nowhere else-and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts." (ST page 95)

Heinlien posits that the Federation has developed and implemented such a system.

**okamido** · March 1st, 2011, 08:15 AM

But is that specific system something that Heinlein really believed? I have to admit I haven't followed any of his "outside the genre" writings, if they even exist. How much of the novel is in fact his personal philosophy, and how much is just "story".

**Charlie Bravo** · March 1st, 2011, 08:27 AM

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Originally Posted by okamido

But is that specific system something that Heinlein really believed? I have to admit I haven't followed any of his "outside the genre" writings, if they even exist. How much of the novel is in fact his personal philosophy, and how much is just "story".

I couldn't say, I'm in the same boat that you're in regarding Heinlien's beliefs, mate. I'm not entirely sure if he's advocating such a system in reality or just as a social and political backdrop to ST.

**OpanaPointer** · March 1st, 2011, 09:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Charlie Bravo

I couldn't say, I'm in the same boat that you're in regarding Heinlien's beliefs, mate. I'm not entirely sure if he's advocating such a system in reality or just as a social and political backdrop to ST.

Look at Tunnel in the Sky, for one, for difference experiments with the body politic. He liked to dabble and what-if.