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Old April 21st, 2014, 07:40 AM   #41

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Originally Posted by Gile na Gile View Post


Sindane, I'm the same, I have to leaf through a physical copy, feels unreal to me otherwise - and the old photos are a great point too in this regard. But I couldn't tell you the amount of e-books I've downloaded; titles that have been out of print for decades, would otherwise cost you a fortune & unless you've got easy access to the best libraries would remain out of reach indefinitely. We're spoilt today with the choice of old titles online no doubt & kudos to all involved grinding them out. Chap from Belfast was telling me the other week the book trade up there has been decimated with most of the big outlets going under. Dublin is a bit different in that there was always a strong second hand market; Chapters on Parnell Street for instance is one the busiest shops in town. Feast for booklovers really but the old titles you stumble across here seldom involve 'the average working man' telling his tale.

Conditions were so different in England; whereas the Chartists encouraged 'self-improvement', lending libraries and strong trade union solidarity within the pockets of industrialisation (the net effect being self-educated tradesmen who valued their own worth and sat up at candlelight after a twelve hour shift to write and study) the typical 'working class' equivalent in Ireland was still the small peasant and farm labourer - his heroes remained to a large extent the seanachaí story-tellers embedded within the old Gaelic oral tradition.

So, the original 'first-hand' literature from Ireland around this time is 'drawn from the soil' & proliferates with poetry and folklore, as opposed to life in the heaving tenements. Friend of mine, a barman from Antrim, reminded me of this recently, when he had me get a book for him down here in the Folklore Institute - his uncle, Eddie Butcher, was a Derry seanachaí, whom the Institute archival specialist took the trouble to record all his songs & sayings before he passed away.

You can see a copy of it here - "All the Days of His Life" Hugh Shields: Irish Song Collector : Irish Folklore Author

So brought it up and next thing half a dozen old codgers round the bar wanted a copy!! - so after a quick whip round I was dispatched 'back South' to buy up the Institute's remaining stock. Butcher was clearly their 'people's champion'; a walking repository of time's long gone. (No, they never heard of Amazon, either )

Like Butcher, Wrigley too was a hardy son of the soil, I love these lines:-

HIS WAS THE SWEET AND GENEROUS SOUL
THAT LOVED NOT SELF ALONE
BUT TO OUR POORER NATURES GAVE
THE FRAGRANCE OF HIS OWN.

WINDS OF THE PENNINES FRESH AND FREE
YOU WERE EVER GOOD FRIENDS TO ME
OUT ON THE MOORS FROM MORN TILL EVE
HAPPY WITH YOU AND LOATHE TO LEAVE.

SO OVER THE HILLS I'LL TAKE MY WAY
AND MATE WITH THE WILD AND FREE
TILL MY DUST IS FLUNG TO THE WINDS
IN MY HILL COUNTRY




Oohh "thats reet grand", as we say. I will look into this Butcher chap, thanks for the link. I want to learn more Irish history. Great story about the books and the old codgers

Wrigley was caught between two worlds. His grandparents had lived in an old farm cottage but he was also an industrial child mill labourer. He describes staring out of the mill windows, longing to be able to run outside and into the countryside to play and do child-like things. He describes working nights in almost darkness and how dark and frightening the mills were and how they never ceased production, even at might. The smoke and pollution. He describes the pubs and the strange banter and competition between the different regions . Poaching too and how locals got away with it

I like this in Wrigley's book.

"My forebears gave me no wordly goods, not even a yard of land or a thimble of gold. They hadn't them to give, but they gave me something that I would not sell for money, even if I could. Their gifts were all in the rough and I have not tried to polish them, and perhaps if I did try , I might make them look like sham things. They gave me a love that is honest and clean and above board, and a deep rooted hatred for all kinds of sham , pretence and make believe".

Last edited by Sindane; April 21st, 2014 at 08:24 AM.
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Old April 21st, 2014, 09:02 AM   #42

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Originally Posted by Sindane View Post
Oohh "thats reet grand", as we say. I will look into this Butcher chap, thanks for the link. I want to learn more Irish history. Great story about the books and the old codgers

Wrigley was caught between two worlds. His grandparents had lived in an old farm cottage but he was also an industrial child mill labourer. He describes staring out of the mill windows, longing to be able to run outside and into the countryside to play and do child-like things. He describes working nights in almost darkness and how dark and frightening the mills were and how they never ceased production, even at might. The smoke and pollution. He describes the pubs and the strange banter and competition between the different regions . Poaching too and how locals got away with it

I like this in Wrigley's book.

"My forebears gave me no wordly goods, not even a yard of land or a thimble of gold. They hadn't them to give, but they gave me something that I would not sell for money, even if I could. Their gifts were all in the rough and I have not tried to polish them, and perhaps if I did try , I might make them look like sham things. They gave me a love that is honest and clean and above board, and a deep rooted hatred for all kinds of sham , pretence and make believe".
Wrigley is a great find for me today, there seems to be a lot of his writings up on Amazon but 'Raking it up' is out of stock unfortunately. I'll nail down a copy soon tho - too many accounts of mill life are from the outside in, and they tend to be of the "concerned sociologist" variety. You need to hear it from the gut to really get a feel for what's happening. Saddleworth cotton industry got hit hard by the Great Depression I'm reading - I'm guessing he had long gone out of the mills by then?

Yeah, the funny thing was instead of giving me the £25 sterling to get a copy they could've got it cheaper online (only a few quid difference mind) but I liked the idea of being a 'special courier' and coming back to the boozer with all the pressies. Most of them had worked the land as kids with their fathers before getting sucked into the towns in the 40's and 50's so the appeal for them was simply a chance to read and listen to some of the old "hay-turning" songs their grandfathers might have sang to them.

To think all of that cultural heritage would have been lost had the trad centre not dispatched someone to take it all down! Eddie Burcher himself would never have dreamed of writing it all down - why should he? It was all stored in his head ..
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Old April 21st, 2014, 10:56 AM   #43

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Originally Posted by Gile na Gile View Post


Sindane, I'm the same, I have to leaf through a physical copy, feels unreal to me otherwise - and the old photos are a great point too in this regard. But I couldn't tell you the amount of e-books I've downloaded; titles that have been out of print for decades, would otherwise cost you a fortune & unless you've got easy access to the best libraries would remain out of reach indefinitely. We're spoilt today with the choice of old titles online no doubt & kudos to all involved grinding them out. Chap from Belfast was telling me the other week the book trade up there has been decimated with most of the big outlets going under. Dublin is a bit different in that there was always a strong second hand market; Chapters on Parnell Street for instance is one the busiest shops in town. Feast for booklovers really but the old titles you stumble across here seldom involve 'the average working man' telling his tale.

Conditions were so different in England; whereas the Chartists encouraged 'self-improvement', lending libraries and strong trade union solidarity within the pockets of industrialisation (the net effect being self-educated tradesmen who valued their own worth and sat up at candlelight after a twelve hour shift to write and study) the typical 'working class' equivalent in Ireland was still the small peasant and farm labourer - his heroes remained to a large extent the seanachaí story-tellers embedded within the old Gaelic oral tradition.

So, the original 'first-hand' literature from Ireland around this time is 'drawn from the soil' & proliferates with poetry and folklore, as opposed to life in the heaving tenements. Friend of mine, a barman from Antrim, reminded me of this recently, when he had me get a book for him down here in the Folklore Institute - his uncle, Eddie Butcher, was a Derry seanachaí, whom the Institute archival specialist took the trouble to record all his songs & sayings before he passed away.

You can see a copy of it here - "All the Days of His Life" Hugh Shields: Irish Song Collector : Irish Folklore Author

So brought it up and next thing half a dozen old codgers round the bar wanted a copy!! - so after a quick whip round I was dispatched 'back South' to buy up the Institute's remaining stock. Butcher was clearly their 'people's champion'; a walking repository of time's long gone. (No, they never heard of Amazon, either )

Like Butcher, Wrigley too was a hardy son of the soil, I love these lines:-

HIS WAS THE SWEET AND GENEROUS SOUL
THAT LOVED NOT SELF ALONE
BUT TO OUR POORER NATURES GAVE
THE FRAGRANCE OF HIS OWN.

WINDS OF THE PENNINES FRESH AND FREE
YOU WERE EVER GOOD FRIENDS TO ME
OUT ON THE MOORS FROM MORN TILL EVE
HAPPY WITH YOU AND LOATHE TO LEAVE.

SO OVER THE HILLS I'LL TAKE MY WAY
AND MATE WITH THE WILD AND FREE
TILL MY DUST IS FLUNG TO THE WINDS
IN MY HILL COUNTRY



Extraordinary poetry there ! Touched me deeply, wonderful !
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Old April 21st, 2014, 06:58 PM   #44

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Ended up having to grab some other unrelated things off Amazon, so threw this into the mix for the hell of it.

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0847693953/"]Dangerous Women: Warriors, Grannies, and Geishas of the Ming: Amazon.co.uk: Victoria B. Cass: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zx4H3vf6L.@@AMEPARAM@@51zx4H3vf6L[/ame]
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 08:18 PM   #45
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Extraordinary poetry there ! Touched me deeply, wonderful !

Poor lyrical command
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 01:49 AM   #46

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Originally Posted by rvsakhadeo View Post
Extraordinary poetry there ! Touched me deeply, wonderful !
Stirring stuff isn't it!? - (even though it doesn't reach Eamonn's high literary standards )

Hadn't heard of the guy myself till Sindane mentioned him. Here's where the inscription is at -

Ammon Wrigley Memorial, Standedge
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 04:18 AM   #47
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I have just ordered The Sunne In Splendour by Sharon Penman. I am eager to learn about Kings and Queens of England and the Wars of the Roses. So if anyone can recommend any historical fiction novels they would be very much welcome.

PS im just finishing reading Leon Uris' Exodus for the second time. One of my all time top 5 novels.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 08:09 AM   #48

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Originally Posted by Gile na Gile View Post
Stirring stuff isn't it!? - (even though it doesn't reach Eamonn's high literary standards )

Hadn't heard of the guy myself till Sindane mentioned him. Here's where the inscription is at -

Ammon Wrigley Memorial, Standedge
Thanks for the link ! I have actually travelled across the Apennines by road. I did this in 2003 April, when a person ( a Pvt.Co. rep. ) took me and two other Indians from Manchester to London by his car. There were views of the lake of a dam across a big river ( can't recall the name immediately ) and there were cool breezes in the morning. Some of the forest trails were blocked by red tape with signs ' Mad Cow disease prone area ' or some such signs.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 08:20 AM   #49

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Originally Posted by jmtalire View Post
I have just ordered The Sunne In Splendour by Sharon Penman. I am eager to learn about Kings and Queens of England and the Wars of the Roses. So if anyone can recommend any historical fiction novels they would be very much welcome.

PS im just finishing reading Leon Uris' Exodus for the second time. One of my all time top 5 novels.
His ' Mila 18 ' is my favourite actually. His ' QB VII ' and ' Topaz ' were also good. But If you want to read a Jewish author, who still writes terrific historical novels my favourite is Herman Wouk. His two novels ' Winds of War ' and ' War and Remembrance ' were read by me again and again till the pages of the books started falling away. His ' Caine Mutiny ' is simply superb. A true historical novel as it should be.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 01:10 AM   #50

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[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chinese-Aesthetics-Ordering-Literature-Dynasties/dp/0824827910"]Chinese Aesthetics: The Ordering of Literature, the Arts, and the Universe in the Six Dynasties: Amazon.co.uk: Zong-qi Cai: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RYNJ0XFTL.@@AMEPARAM@@51RYNJ0XFTL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1438428987"]Patronage and Community in Medieval China SUNY Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture: Amazon.co.uk: Andrew Chittick: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41a1GT-gelL.@@AMEPARAM@@41a1GT-gelL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0674026020"]Beacon Fire and Shooting Star: The Literary Culture of the Liang Harvard-Yenching Institute Monograph Series: Amazon.co.uk: Xiaofei Tian: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P4PTpt%2BFL.@@AMEPARAM@@51P4PTpt%2BFL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0520250907"]Talented Women of the Zhang Family Philip E. Lilienthal Books in Asian Studies: Amazon.co.uk: Susan Mann: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21L7JS1f-nL.@@AMEPARAM@@21L7JS1f-nL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0804731519/"]Women and Writing in Modern China: Amazon.co.uk: Wendy Larson: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MTA53YA4L.@@AMEPARAM@@51MTA53YA4L[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0804727449/"]Precious Records: Women in China's Long Eighteenth Century: Amazon.co.uk: Susan Mann: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5125%2Bc1MS9L.@@AMEPARAM@@5125%2Bc1MS9L[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0520071247/"]Marriage and Inequality in Chinese Society Studies on China: Amazon.co.uk: Watson: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412NCHE3NXL.@@AMEPARAM@@412NCHE3NXL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0819563447/"]The Clouds Float North: The Complete Poems of Yu Xuanji: Bilingual Edition Wesleyan Poetry: Amazon.co.uk: David Young, Yu, Jiann I. Lin: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DHVG1DN2L.@@AMEPARAM@@51DHVG1DN2L[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0804768595/"]Sound and Sight: Poetry and Courtier Culture in the Yongming Era 483-493: Amazon.co.uk: Meow Hui Goh: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CRCArrjzL.@@AMEPARAM@@41CRCArrjzL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00DUS0K2M/"]CUHK Series:Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms eBook: Peter Lorge: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51t9whAszmL.@@AMEPARAM@@51t9whAszmL[/ame]

Hopefully the last major book haul now for a few months. The Tian Xiaofei book was especially essential and I've needed it for a long time now. A few other good selections of medieval happenings and then rounding off with some more on Late Imperial-modern womens studies. Was very happy to get the Cai book cheaply, as well as a bargain on the kindle edition of Lorge's volume.
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