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Old October 1st, 2012, 07:24 AM   #51

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Originally Posted by Salah View Post
I've never heard of a 'black' calling him crazy.
The guy who posted that seems to be long gone, good riddance to him.
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Old October 1st, 2012, 01:06 PM   #52

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOJzSAbqHHQ&feature=related"]John Brown - YouTube[/ame]

No movies worth watching by the looks of things but this is the best documentary I've seen on Brown.

It's even-handed but sympathetic overall & includes a wide range of differing opinions from a healthy spectrum of commentators including but not limited to the following authors;

Charles Joyner

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Down-Riverside-Carolina-Community-Blacks/dp/0252013050/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349125131&sr=1-4"]Down by the Riverside: A South Carolina Slave Community (Blacks in the New World): Charles Joyner: 9780252013058: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h3iLJ8e0L.@@AMEPARAM@@51h3iLJ8e0L[/ame]

Paul Finkelman

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Terrible-Swift-Sword-Legacy-Brown/dp/0821416316/ref=sr_1_14?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349123982&sr=1-14&keywords=terrible+swift+sword"]Terrible Swift Sword: The Legacy of John Brown: Peggy A. Russo,Paul Finkelman: 9780821416310: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SQ9ZKRF9L.@@AMEPARAM@@51SQ9ZKRF9L[/ame]

Margaret Washington

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Sojourner-Truths-America-Margaret-Washington/dp/0252078012/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349123844&sr=1-10&keywords=sojourner+truth"]Sojourner Truth's America: Margaret Washington: 9780252078019: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mab2kStbL.@@AMEPARAM@@51mab2kStbL[/ame]

James O. Horton

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Slavery-Making-America-Oliver-Horton/dp/0195304519/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top"]Slavery and the Making of America: James Oliver Horton,Lois E. Horton: 9780195304510: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bus5AcdkL.@@AMEPARAM@@51bus5AcdkL[/ame]

J.Brewer Stewart

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Venture-Smith-Buisiness-Slavery-Freedom/dp/1558497404/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349124904&sr=1-1"]Venture Smith and the Buisiness of Slavery and Freedom: James Brewer Stewart (ed.),Foward by James O. Horton: 9781558497405: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LmqJogJCL.@@AMEPARAM@@51LmqJogJCL[/ame]

Russel Banks

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Cloudsplitter-Novel-Russell-Banks/dp/0060930861/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349124732&sr=1-1&keywords=cloudspitter"]Cloudsplitter: A Novel: Russell Banks: 9780060930868: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A9ap3o6yL.@@AMEPARAM@@51A9ap3o6yL[/ame]


Dennis Frye, Author Harper's Ferry under Fire
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Old November 5th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #53

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John Brown

The PBS series - The Abolitionists - covers John Brown's life quite well. I believe he was a heroic figure who directly affected the life of this Nation. Frederick Douglas expressed remorse for not joining him at the Harper raid.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #54

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Quentin Tarantino has occasionally mused about making a John Brown movie, which would be pretty amazing.

Anyways, I think it's about time that the United States embrace John Brown for the hero that he was, and a cinematic portrayal would be highly appropriate.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/John-Brown-Abolitionist-Slavery-Sparked/dp/0375726152"]John Brown, Abolitionist: The Man Who Killed Slavery, Sparked the Civil War, and Seeded Civil Rights: David S. Reynolds: 9780375726156: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PCFT93TBL.@@AMEPARAM@@41PCFT93TBL[/ame]

Here's an excellent article on Mr. Brown for all interested by the inimitable Christopher Hitchens:
The Man Who Ended Slavery - Christopher Hitchens - The Atlantic

Originally Posted by The Atlantic: "The Man Who Ended Slavery" by Christopher Hitchens
The Man Who Ended Slavery
Slandered by craven abolitionists as unhinged, John Brown was in fact an eloquent, cool-headed tactician who succeeded in his long-range plan: launching a civil war

When Abraham Lincoln gave an audience to Harriet Beecher Stowe, he is supposed to have greeted her by saying that she was the little woman who had started this great war. That fondly related anecdote illustrates the persistent tendency to Parson Weemsishness in our culture. It was not at all the tear-jerking sentiment of Uncle Tom's Cabin that catalyzed the War Between the States. It was, rather, the blood-spilling intransigence of John Brown, field-tested on the pitiless Kansas prairies and later deployed at Harpers Ferry. And John Brown was a man whom Lincoln assiduously disowned, until the time came when he himself was compelled to adopt the policy of "war to the knife, and the knife to the hilt," as partisans of the slaveocracy had hitherto been too proud of saying.

David Reynolds sets himself to counter several misapprehensions about the pious old buzzard (Brown, I mean, not Lincoln). Among these are the impressions that he was a madman, that he was a homicidal type, and that his assault on a federal arsenal was foredoomed and quixotic. The critical thing here is context. And the author succeeds admirably in showing that Brown, far from being a crazed fanatic, was a serious legatee of the English and American revolutions who anticipated the Emancipation Proclamation and all that has ensued from it.

Until 1850, perhaps, the "peculiar institution" of slavery might have had a chance of perpetuating itself indefinitely by compromise. But the exorbitance and arrogance of "the slave power" forbade this accommodation. Not content with preserving their own domain in its southeastern redoubt, the future Confederates insisted on extending their chattel system into new territories, and on implicating the entire Union in their system. The special symbol of this hubris was the Fugitive Slave Act, which legalized the recovery of human property from "free" states. The idea of secession or separation first arose among abolitionists confronted with this monstrous imposition. Men like William Lloyd Garrison took their text from the Book of Isaiah, describing the U.S. Constitution as a "covenant with death and an agreement with hell," and exhorting their supporters to "come out now and be separate." (This hermeneutic rejectionism, incidentally, is identical to that preached today by Ian Paisley and the Presbyterian hard-liners of Northern Ireland.)

The proto-libertarian and anarchist Lysander Spooner argued that nowhere did the Constitution explicitly endorse slavery. It was for defenders of the values of 1776 and 1789 to help the slaves overthrow an illegitimate tyranny. In this he had the support of the Republican Frederick Douglass, who also wanted the United States to live up to its founding documents rather than to nullify or negate them. Meanwhile, the Democrats were unashamed advocates of the extension of slavery, and Lincoln was willing to submit to one humiliation after another in order, as he never tired of saying, "to preserve the Union."

John Brown could effortlessly outdo Garrison in any biblical condemnation of slavery. He could also easily surpass Lysander Spooner in his zeal to encourage and arm what the authorities called "servile insurrection." He strongly agreed with Douglass that the Union should be preserved and not dissolved. But he was incapable of drawing up any balance sheet between "preservation" and gradual emancipation, because he saw quite plainly that the balance was going the other way, and that the slave power was influencing and subordinating the North, rather than the other way about. Thus, despite his commitment to the Union, he was quite ready to regard the federal government as an enemy.

Originally a New Englander (and possibly a Mayflower descendant), Brown appeared to adopt and exemplify the adamant Calvinism of Jonathan Edwards, with his strict insistence on predestination and the "elect" and his vivid belief in eternal punishment for sinners. Reynolds gives some hair-raising examples of the culture of corporal punishment and cruel austerity that ruled Brown's own upbringing and the raising of his twenty children, and it is easy to see how such a combination of dogma and discipline might have given rise to the persistent rumor that he was partly unhinged (more than one of his sons became mentally disturbed). However, the story of his longer evolution makes this speculation a highly unsafe one.

For all his attachment to Calvinist orthodoxy, Brown felt himself very close to the transcendental school of Emerson and Thoreau. He formed important friendships in this circle, and relied on a "Secret Six" committee of supporters in Massachusetts, who stood ready to provide money and even weapons for his projects. He can hardly have been unaware of the religious heterodoxy of this group; and when it came to the no less critical matter of choosing his immediate entourage of radical would-be guerrillas, he readily included Jews, Indians, Paine-ite deists, and agnostics. Most of all, however, he insisted on including blacks. This at once distinguished him from most abolitionists, who preferred to act "for" the slaves rather than with them. But Brown had made a friendship with a slave boy at the age of twelve, and would appear to have undergone a Huck Finn—like experience in the recognition of a common humanity. Later he studied the life and tactics of Nat Turner, and of the rebellious Haitian Toussaint L'Ouverture, and decided that a full-scale revolt of the oppressed, rather than any emancipation from above, was the need of the hour.

I was very much interested to learn that his other great hero was Oliver Cromwell, whose "New Model Army" had swept away profane kingship in England and established a Puritan regime. The revisionist view of Cromwell as a liberator rather than a regicide was the work of Thomas Carlyle in the 1840s, and a result of Carlyle's friendship with Emerson. The American writer Joel Tyler Headley "recycled" Carlyle, as Reynolds phrases it, for the American mass market, portraying Cromwell as an ancestor of the American Revolution as well as a synthesizer of "religion, republicanism, and violence." (It seems probable that Brown got his introduction to Cromwell from Headley rather than directly from Carlyle: I cannot easily imagine him esteeming the Carlyle who apostatized from Calvinism, let alone the Carlyle who, in justifying slavery in the West Indies in 1850, published "Occasional Discourse on the Nigger Question." Reynolds does not discuss this awkward paradox.)

Reynolds focuses on the three most sanguinary and dramatic episodes in Brown's career: the engagements at Pottawatomie and Osawatomie, in Kansas, and the culminating battle at Harpers Ferry. To read this extended account is to appreciate that Brown, far from being easily incited to rage and rashness, was capable of playing a very long game. He was naturally drawn to Kansas, because it had become the battleground state in a Union that was half slave and half free. The pro-slavery settlers and infiltrators from Missouri were determined to colonize the territory and to pack its polling booths, and in this they often had the indulgence of decrepit and cowardly presidents, including Franklin Pierce. Until the appearance of Brown and his men on the scene, the slave power had had things mostly its own way, and was accustomed to using any method it saw fit. After the murder of the abolitionist editor Elijah Lovejoy, and especially after the famous assault on Senator Charles Sumner by Representative Preston Brooks, Brown decided on a reprisal raid, and slew several leading pro-slavery Kansans in the dead of night. There is no question that this represented only a small installment of payback, though Reynolds nervously characterizes it as "terrorism" and spends a great deal of time and ink in partly rationalizing the deed.

The superfluity of this is easily demonstrated. Not only had the slaveholders perpetrated the preponderance of atrocities, and with impunity at that, but they had begun to boast that northerners and New Englanders were congenitally soft and altogether lacking in "chivalric" and soldierly qualities. What could be more apt than that they should encounter John Brown, careless of his own safety and determined to fill the ungodly with the fear of the risen Christ? Every Cavalier should meet such a Roundhead. After Pottawatomie the swagger went out of the southerners, and after the more conventional fighting at Osawatomie, and Brown's cool-headed raid to liberate a group of slaves and take them all the way to Canada, they came to realize that they were in a hard fight. Furthermore, their sulfurous reaction to this discovery, and their stupid tendency to paint Brown as an agent of the Republican Party, made it harder and harder for the invertebrate Lincolnians to keep the issue of slavery under control.

In his work in Kansas, and his long toil on the Underground Railroad, Brown was essentially mounting a feint. He knew that subscribers and supporters in New England would give him money, and even arms, for these limited and shared objectives. But he wanted to divert the money, and the arms, to the larger purpose of making any further Lincolnian retreats and compromises impossible. For years he had been studying the keystone town of Harpers Ferry, situated at the confluence of the Shenandoah and the Potomac, and handily placed for the potentially guerrilla-friendly Allegheny Mountains.

Reynolds shows that the strategic design was not as quixotic as one has often been led to believe. This northwestern portion of Virginia was generally sympathetic to abolition and to the Union (indeed, its later cleaving into the new free state of West Virginia, in 1862, is the only secession from that epoch that still survives). The fall months were the harvest season, when disaffection among overdriven slaves was more general. And the national political climate was becoming more febrile and polarized.

Brown's raid at Harpers Ferry failed badly, of course, but the courage and bearing he demonstrated after his humiliating defeat were of an order to impress his captors, who announced that far from being "mad," their prisoner was lucid and eloquent as well as brave. The slander of insanity was circulated by the weaker members of the anti-slavery camp, who cringingly sought to avoid the identification with Brown that the southern press had opportunistically made. By falling for its own propaganda, however, and in the general panic that followed the botched insurrection, the South persuaded itself that war was inevitable and that Lincoln (who had denounced Brown in his campaign against Douglas and in his famous speech at Cooper Union) was a Brown-ite at heart. The history of the six years after 1859 is the history not so much of Brown's prophecy as of the self-fulfilling prophecy of his enemies. As Reynolds hauntingly words it,

"The officer who supervised the capture of Brown was Robert E. Lee … Lee's retreat from the decisive battle of Gettysburg would pass over the same road that Brown took to Harpers Ferry on the night of his attack. The lieutenant who demanded Brown's surrender was J.E.B. Stuart, later Lee's celebrated cavalry officer. Among the officers who supervised at Brown's hanging was Thomas Jackson, soon to become the renowned "Stonewall." Among the soldiers at Brown's execution was a dashing Southern actor, John Wilkes Booth."

If this does not vindicate Brown's view that all had been predestined by the Almighty before the world was made, it nonetheless does do something to the hair on the back of one's neck. As do the words finally uttered in Lincoln's Second Inaugural, about every drop of blood drawn by the lash being repaid by the sword, and the utter destruction of the piled-up wealth of those who live by the bondsman's toil. The final reckoning with slavery and secession was described by Lincoln himself as one great "John Brown raid" into the South, and was on a scale that would have brought a wintry smile to the stern face of Oliver Cromwell. The "Marseillaise" of that crusade ("The Battle Hymn of the Republic," which first appeared, as did many other important documents of the Brown-Emerson alliance, in the pages of this magazine) was an adaptation of the foot soldiers' song about Old Osawatomie Brown. One reserves the term "quixotic" for hopeless causes. Harpers Ferry was the first defeat, as it was also the seminal victory, of a triumphant cause, precisely because it sounded a trumpet that could never call retreat.

So much for the apocalyptic and, if you like, "transcendental" influence of Brown. Reynolds, building on the earlier work of Merrill Peterson, traces another, gentler influence that may be no less consequential. Almost all whites in that epoch feared almost all blacks. And many blacks resented the condescension of anti-slavery organizations—most especially those groups that wanted to free them and then deport them to Africa. John Brown shared his life with slaves, and re-wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution so as to try to repair the hideous wrong that had been done to them. (In issuing these documents, by the way, he exculpated himself from any ahistorical charge of "terrorism," which by definition offers nothing programmatic.) The record shows that admiration for Brown was intense, widespread, and continuous, from Douglass to DuBois and beyond. Our world might be a good deal worse than it is had not numberless African-Americans, from that day to this, taken John Brown as proof that fraternity and equality, as well as liberty, were feasible things and could be exemplified by real people.

Last edited by Wolfpaw; November 5th, 2013 at 05:17 PM.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 05:17 PM   #55

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For an actual movie, see:
"Santa Fe Trail" <1940> starring Errol Flynn, Olivia de Havilland, Ronald Reagan & Raymond Massey as John Brown
Click the image to open in full size.

"Seven Angry Men" <1955> with Massey again playing Brown. Dennis Weaver and
Jeffrey Hunter.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #56

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Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
"Santa Fe Trail" <1940> starring Errol Flynn, Olivia de Havilland, Ronald Reagan & Raymond Massey as John Brown
As a warning to those thinking of renting this movie, it is a boring and ugly exercise in historical inaccuracy that seeks to blame a caricature of John Brown (and, by extension, all abolitionists) for not just the horrors of Kansas, but for the sundering of the Union and the civil war in general.

But then, what should one expect from a film whose "heroes" are J.E.B. Stuart and George Custer?

Last edited by Wolfpaw; November 5th, 2013 at 05:29 PM.
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Old November 6th, 2013, 07:11 AM   #57

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I do recommend the book, 'Cloudsplitter' by the great Author, Russel Banks.

The cover of Russell Banks's mountain-sized novel Cloudsplitter features an actual photo of Owen Brown, the son of John Brown--the hero of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" whose terrorist band murdered proponents of slavery in Kansas and attacked Harpers Ferry, Virginia, in 1859 on what he considered direct orders from God, helping spark the Civil War.

A deeply researched but fictionalized Owen narrates this remarkably realistic and ambitious novel ... Banks spent half a decade researching Cloudsplitter, and he renounces the conventional magic of his poetical prose style for a voice steeped in the King James Bible and the stately cadences of 19th-century political rhetoric. The tone is closer to Ken Burns's tragic, elegiac The Civil War than to the recent crazy-quilt modernist novel about John Brown, Raising Holy Hell.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Cloudsplitter-A-Novel-ebook/dp/B005O079IM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383754343&sr=8-1&keywords=cloudsplitter"]Amazon.com: Cloudsplitter: A Novel eBook: Russell Banks: Kindle Store@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lvVBKu3WL.@@AMEPARAM@@51lvVBKu3WL[/ame]

Last edited by unclefred; November 6th, 2013 at 07:18 AM.
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Old November 6th, 2013, 07:21 AM   #58

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Flashman and the Angel of the Lord. (book)
Click the image to open in full size.

Give's (assuming GMF's usual historical accuracy) an entertaining semi-fictional account of the events, as seen through Flashmans severely jaundiced eyes.
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Old November 9th, 2013, 09:47 AM   #59

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Originally Posted by Wolfpaw View Post
As a warning to those thinking of renting this movie, it is a boring and ugly exercise in historical inaccuracy that seeks to blame a caricature of John Brown (and, by extension, all abolitionists) for not just the horrors of Kansas, but for the sundering of the Union and the civil war in general.

But then, what should one expect from a film whose "heroes" are J.E.B. Stuart and George Custer?
It's also an example of Warner's in decent form with director Michael Curtiz making the Harpers Ferry incident look like the Charge of the Light Brigade (a picture Curtiz directed as well); a very energetic and well done scene. Not at all accurate but a brilliant piece of action picture making.

The scene of Brown on the scaffold is VERY good and perhaps Raymond Massey's best work. I think the picture is worth watching for that scene alone.

Last edited by BoilerL1; November 9th, 2013 at 10:07 AM.
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Old November 9th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #60
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I understand that many of the films made before Pearl Harbor were influenced by the British such as Sergeant York and the Fighting 69th. I was thinking about this 1940 film about Brown which showed him to be a lunatic. Such a film would be appreciated in the South where there was more support for the British then in other parts of the country before Pearl Harbor.
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