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Old September 28th, 2016, 01:48 PM   #31
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If you can sail all the way to Hawaii, you can sail all the way to the US.
The whole Hawaiian operation was at the far edge of what the Japanese were capable of. Their fleet was not built to operate that far from home. Logistically, they had no hope of sustained operations to the US mainland.

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If the US had stayed out the war, and Nazis had developed their atomic bomb, and planes to deliver them, they could have blackmailed the US into surrendering.
Yes, well "the planes to deliver them" presented quite a problem, didn't they? The word "impossible" springs to mind since the Germans never even developed a four=engine bomber worthy of the name. And the atomic bomb? They had the scientists but no program to truly develop one nor willingness to commit resources to it.

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An isolationist America would have had planes that would not been able to match tne axis, and the Nazis were working on intercontinental bombers.
Since the US was already producing aircraft for the allies to their specifications while being at peace, we would have had the latest fighters in any case.

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A Britain that lost the battle of Britain, and the Nazis conquered it, no Manhatan project, probably no Pearl Harbor to wake up America in tkme, Roosevelt dying sooner and being replaced with a less competent President, and onw not as committed to supporting Britain, as Roosevelt, and so Britain fell under the Nazis onslaught, it might all be possible in ways you can't image.
I guess this is where the fiction part of science fiction comes in.

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1. Roosevelt is not President, dies of the stroke that killed him years earlier, or even dies of polio

2. Say a pro German like Lindberg became president. It was possible, he was famous and popular
Famous, yes, but increasingly unpopular.

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3. US stays out of the war, and does not support Britains war effort.

4. Britain falls to Germany. (Maybe no Churchill, perhaps he died years earlier in the Boer War). With Britain the way, Germany can concentrate on the Soviet Union and defeats it. Instead of exterminating tne Slavs, and others, the Nazis work at protraying themselves as liberators of Russian and Communist oppressiom. Many Ukranians did fight for the Nazis, wkth a little more diplomacy, perhaps they could convinced even more tl join them. Many initially did not fight tnr Nazis very hard until tney realized the Nazis were even worse. The Soviets pleas to fight for communism fell a lot on deaf ears, it was only when they appealed tl fight for mother Russia that people began to fight.

Part of the success of Brtian in the battle of Britain was tnat before tne war they had set up their radar network, which made their planes more effective. Without radar and this radar network, the air battle might havd gone differently. Perhaps King Edward did not abdicate, and with him on the throne, things might have gone a different way.
Sigh. If you change "everything", then "everything" changes. The only question is, how far-fetched are those changes?
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Old September 28th, 2016, 02:32 PM   #32

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True, but when you consider that the Germans were unable to cross the English channel to invade the UK, the idea that Germany could cross the Atlantic (and Japan the Pacific) to invade the US seems ludicrous in the extreme, literally a bridge too far.
Of course you are right but do nto forget Germans were a few steps away from making A bomb. If they handled they did not need to cross channel at all and it could be disaster even for mightier countries than UK.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 02:38 PM   #33

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I read the book: implausible. I have seen the whole series: even more implausible. It's creepy and because the fundamental premise is so far-fetched, the whole thing left me cold.
If you prefer something more real, you can try this:
Anthropoid (2016) - IMDb
I just came from premiere in cinema.
It is movie on assassinationof Reinhard Heydrich in Prague, third man of Nazi empire. The movie is bit real including moments as flooded crypt, head in bowl etc.
I wonder how it seen by Americans as it is bit personal for Czechs. Nearly all of us visited Lidice village destroyed in retribution where all males over 16 were shot and kids and women were gased. We also saw the terrible nazi retribution in so many other movies and many of us saw German guillotine which served nearly nonstop after the assassination.
By the way Heydrich also appears in the Man in the high castle series.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 05:11 PM   #34

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True, but when you consider that the Germans were unable to cross the English channel to invade the UK, the idea that Germany could cross the Atlantic (and Japan the Pacific) to invade the US seems ludicrous in the extreme, literally a bridge too far.
An Ocean too Far?
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Old September 28th, 2016, 05:39 PM   #35

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
If you prefer something more real, you can try this:
Anthropoid (2016) - IMDb
I just came from premiere in cinema.
It is movie on assassinationof Reinhard Heydrich in Prague, third man of Nazi empire. The movie is bit real including moments as flooded crypt, head in bowl etc.
I wonder how it seen by Americans as it is bit personal for Czechs. Nearly all of us visited Lidice village destroyed in retribution where all males over 16 were shot and kids and women were gased. We also saw the terrible nazi retribution in so many other movies and many of us saw German guillotine which served nearly nonstop after the assassination.
By the way Heydrich also appears in the Man in the high castle series.

There was a perfectly good film made in 1975--and it hasn't dated, called "Operation Daybreak" on the assasination of Heydrich. My only criticism is that Anton Differing, who made a career out of being a nasty Nazi, was too old at 52 to play the the 37 year old Heydrich.
Unusually, the film was made in then communist Czechoslovakia with the full co-operation of the Czech authorities who went to great pains to make the street scenes "authentic" 1942.
I am always wary of re-makes of good movies, they seem to be made by second-rate directors grasping for fame.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 05:52 PM   #36
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The whole Hawaiian operation was at the far edge of what the Japanese were capable of. Their fleet was not built to operate that far from home. Logistically, they had no hope of sustained operations to the US mainland.
Yes, well "the planes to deliver them" presented quite a problem, didn't they? The word "impossible" springs to mind since the Germans never even developed a four=engine bomber worthy of the name. And the atomic bomb? They had the scientists but no program to truly develop one nor willingness to commit resources to it. [/quote]

The Nazis had plans on the drawing board for such planes, and might have eventually built them had they more time, and not been defeated.



Quote:
Since the US was already producing aircraft for the allies to their specifications while being at peace, we would have had the latest fighters in any case.
A more isolationist US, without Roosevelt supporting Britain every way he could, might not have been producing those planes. Perhaps a more peace oriented, pro German group might have actually banned US firms from making warplanes for the Britain, as being to provoking and potentially lead us into war. Or a more penny conscious government might not have been willing to spend the money on new plane development. Keep in mind, that the keel of every major US warship that saw action in WW2 was laid before the war began, because Roosevelt was doing what he could to prepare the US for entry into WW2. Roosevelt certainly wasn't an isolationist, even if the country was, but another US president might have been a true isolationist.


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Famous, yes, but increasingly unpopular.
Still, possible with the right support support, perhaps Lindberg could have been elected. A different president than Roosevelt, with worse policies


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Sigh. If you change "everything", then "everything" changes. The only question is, how far-fetched are those changes?
The changes I propose aren't all that major outside the realm of possibility.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 06:01 PM   #37

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Originally Posted by royal744 View Post
The whole Hawaiian operation was at the far edge of what the Japanese were capable of. Their fleet was not built to operate that far from home. Logistically, they had no hope of sustained operations to the US mainland.
Yes, well "the planes to deliver them" presented quite a problem, didn't they? The word "impossible" springs to mind since the Germans never even developed a four=engine bomber worthy of the name. And the atomic bomb? They had the scientists but no program to truly develop one nor willingness to commit resources to it.
Since the US was already producing aircraft for the allies to their specifications while being at peace, we would have had the latest fighters in any case.

I guess this is where the fiction part of science fiction comes in.

Sigh. If you change "everything", then "everything" changes. The only question is, how far-fetched are those changes?



Looks like you haven't got a handle on the Alternative History thing.

It is all about credible "Point of Divergence" (POD in the lingo) or how far back you need to go to make changes that will produce a desired result.
Turtledove chose the ACW with a British-allied Confederate win that produced a pro-German Union in WW1.

A 1930s POD is too late to produce an America too weak to withstand a German-Japanese attack in the 1940s but one can go back and remove the Spanish-American War and a make a neutral America in WW1.
With no Spanish American War the US would be weak in Asia and the Pacific, would not have upgraded its fleet and its army--a small frontier police force in our actual 1914, even less effective.
No involvement in WW1 would exclude a generation of soldiers some of whom became general officers in WW2. It would also have stunted, in part, the development of a weapons industry which was not much to talk about anyway before 1939.
The US faced an existential economic crisis in the 1930s, the rise of FDR headed off any serious bolshevism that had bubbled under since the 1900s and a too-close swing to National Socialism (which is what the New Deal was)--but it could all have gone a different way. At least it could in alternate history.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 06:03 PM   #38

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Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
y was, but another US president might have been a true isolationist.

Still, possible with the right support support, perhaps Lindberg could have been elected. A different president than Roosevelt, with worse policies




.
Read Philip Roth's "The Plot against America".. Lindbergh wins the Presidency in 1940.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 06:35 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
If you prefer something more real, you can try this:
Anthropoid (2016) - IMDb
I just came from premiere in cinema.
It is movie on assassinationof Reinhard Heydrich in Prague, third man of Nazi empire. The movie is bit real including moments as flooded crypt, head in bowl etc.
I wonder how it seen by Americans as it is bit personal for Czechs. Nearly all of us visited Lidice village destroyed in retribution where all males over 16 were shot and kids and women were gased. We also saw the terrible nazi retribution in so many other movies and many of us saw German guillotine which served nearly nonstop after the assassination.
By the way Heydrich also appears in the Man in the high castle series.
Interesting. I have always despised Heydrich. Curiously, his wife believed that he could have been saved by his doctors. She believed that the SS willfully failed to save him. I don't know what to make of that.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 06:43 PM   #40
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Read Philip Roth's "The Plot against America".. Lindbergh wins the Presidency in 1940.
If it had been revealed that Lindbergh had three families with children - one in the US and two in Germany - it might not have gone down quite so well for him. As it was, his slavering idolizing of Germany was already sticking in the craw.
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