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Old July 16th, 2017, 09:55 PM   #1
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Cavalry & Indians Movies and TV


I like cavalry and Indians movies and am thinking of writing a book about the fictional history of the Indian wars in the wild west of imagination.

One necessary task would be to put movies in the correct fictional order.

That is easy when the movies state their fictional dates.

For example Pillars of the Sky 1956 has a stated fictional date of 1868, even though the historical events it is loosely based on happened ten years earlier in 1858. And Kamiakin was not killed in 1858 or 1868 but died in 1877.

Other movies give clues about their dates.

For example Rio Grande 1950 was fifteen years after the devastation of the Shenandoah Valley in October 1864 and thus should happen sometime in the period of October 1869 to October 1880.

Stagecoach 1939 includes the following dialog:

Quote:
Ed (editor): McCoy! Billy, kill that story about the Republican Convention in Chicago and take this down: "The Ringo Kid was killed on Main Street in Lordsburg tonight. And among the additional dead were..." Leave that blank for a spell.
McCoy, typesetter: I didn't hear any shootin', Ed.
Ed (editor): You will, Billy, you will.
Stagecoach (1939) - Quotes - IMDb

Republican national conventions in Chicago happened 19-18 May 1860, 20-21 May 1868, 2-8 June 1880, 3-6 June 1884, 19-25 June 1888, and again in 1904, 1908, 1912, 1916, and 1920. Two stagecoach passengers fought in the Civil War, making the only reasonable choices 1868, 1880, 1884, and 1888.

The Apache outbreak most likely to be referred to as Geronimo leaving the reservation was in 1885. Of course the fictional movie Geronimo(s) left the reservation almost as often as the Joker leaves prison.

Another way to tell the fictional date of a movie is the number of stars in United States flags. They can be compared to the dates those numbers of stars were official. Of course the goofs section in IMDb has a bunch of goofs stating that the flags have the wrong number of stars for the dates of the movies.

Another thing I look for is what military units are involved. Sometimes that is mentioned and sometimes there are visual clues.

For example, each troop or company of cavalry carried a fork tailed flag called a guidon.

According to the 1833 regulations, a guidon was divided horizontally, red above and white below, with the white letters U.S. in the red part and the red letter of the company in the white part. In 1862 the design was changed to a fork tailed US flag, with the stars usually arranged in concentric circles. In 1883 the design was changed to horizontal red over white, with the regimental number in white above and the company letter in red below.

Many movies use the stars and stripes guidons, but most used variations of the red over white guidons. Some have U.S. in the upper part, some have the regimental number, some have crossed sabers, some may have other symbols, and some may be blank. Some have the company letter in the lower part, others may have U.S. or the regimental number, or crossed sabers, or other symbols, or be blank.

So I look for the designs of guidons when watching cavalry movies.

Some movie cavalrymen have crossed saber insignia on their hats or caps. And sometimes it has regimental numbers and/or company letters as well. For example the cavalry in Last of the Comanches 1953 set in August 1876 wear insignia of company G 14th Cavalry on their hats.

It is often said that John Ford used the 7th Cavalry a lot in his movies like Stagecoach 1939, Fort Apache 1948, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon 1949, Rio Grande 1950, The Searchers1956, The Horse Soldiers 1959, Sergeant Rutledge1960, Two Rode Together 1961, and Cheyenne Autumn 1964, but I doubt it.

It is said that the 7th Cavalry rescues the protagonists in Stagecoach 1939. Look at this still:

Click the image to open in full size.

It looks sort of like the number 7 in the bottom half of the guidon. But this is the back or reverse side of the guidon. The front or obverse side of a flag is always shown with the staff to the left. So this is actually a guidon of company F of the Sixth Cavalry.

I haven't seen any visual indication of the regiment in Fort Apache.

In She Wore a Yellow Ribbon set at Fictional Fort Starke on the southern plains in late 1876, several persons wear caps with the number 2, as seen in these photos.

Click the image to open in full size.

In Rio Grande Patrick Wayne as a soldier's child wears a cap with a 7.

Click the image to open in full size.

But several of the characters who portray soldiers wear caps with the number 2.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

This still indicates that the Ninth Cavalry is the regiment in Sergeant Rutledge

Chuck Hayward

And Wikipedia says the Ninth Cavalry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_Rutledge

Anyway, you won't find any African Americans in the Seventh Cavalry in any westerns I ever saw.

In Cheyenne Autumn several stills indicate that the guidon has no markings:

Ben Johnson - Page 94 - The Silver Screen Oasis

Thus the idea that John Ford often depicted the Seventh Cavalry seems doubtful.

If anyone wants to post any "facts" from the "history" of wild west movies go ahead.

Last edited by MAGolding; July 16th, 2017 at 10:06 PM.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 10:31 PM   #2
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List of Cavalry vs Indian movies by fictional date.

All movies here the cavalry were their usual western style uniforms should be set in fictional dates after the fictional adoption of that style and before the fictional replacement of that uniform style.

Seminole [1953] set in the Second Seminole War in Florida, with a fictional date of 1835 according to Wikipedia. The soldiers wear older style uniforms not seen in Cavalry & Indian westerns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminole_(film)

Distant Drums [1951] is set in 1840 according to Wikipedia - the Second Seminole War is still dragging on. The soldiers wear uniforms much more like typical cavalry uniforms in western movies.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dist...r=1.13#imgrc=_

Thus the change to Civil War era and western era uniforms should fictionally begin between 1835 and 1840.

The Oregon Trail [1959] involves a wagon train to Oregon in 1846 according to IMDB. The Oregon Trail (1959) - IMDb

And the soldiers already dress like typical western movie cavalry.

In Santa Fe Trail [1940] soldiers wear caps from the Mexican War era of 1846-48. The film is set in 1854-1859.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Trail_(film)

They Came to Cordura [1959] happens in the pursuit of Pancho Villa in 1916.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_Came_to_Cordura

The soldiers wear khaki colored uniforms.

Thus movies where cavalry wear the familiar western cavalry uniforms should happen between 1835 at the very earliest and 1916 at the very latest.

1846: The Oregon Trail [1959] A wagon train travels to Oregon in 1846 according to IMDB. Indians attack at Fort Laramie.The Oregon Trail (1959) - IMDb

1862-1865. Apache Ambush [1955]. On April 14, 1865, it is mentioned that the Army of the Southwest under General Crook - or Cooke, or Hook - has being fighting Apaches constantly for three years. One would think that if the Army of the Southwest was as large as the typical Union army they would have run out of hostile Apaches by then, but movie Apaches were far more numerous and hostile than real Apaches.

1865, April 14, Abraham Lincoln is shot by John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theater and dies on April 15. Real History.

1865. Cavalry [1936] On or before April 14, President Lincoln sends Captain Ted Thorne west to protect the vital telegraph line being built to an unspecified territory. Thorn goes undercover in a wagon train. Horace Leeds is plotting to form his own independent nation, having learned nothing from the failure of Jefferson Davis and his 500,000 man army I guess, and incites the local Indians to attack the telegraph crews and the wagon trains.

1865. April 14. Apache Ambush [1955] Abraham Lincoln sends ex soldiers James Kingston and Tim O'Roarke to Texas to drive a herd of cattle up north to fed a hungry nation. Dialog reveals that one of them has served in the Army of the Southwest for three years under General Crook - or Cooke, or Hook - facing Apaches morning, noon and night.

1865. April 14. The Plainsman [1936] Abraham Lincoln says that the settlers in the west must be protected, goes to the theater, and is shot. Armaments manufacturers led by Van Ellyn facing loss of demand for their product - due to the shocking outbreak of peace - plot to sell repeating rifles to the Indians out west. Their agent, John Lattimer, is sent west.

1865. Later. Apache Ambush [1955] Kingston and O'Roarke reach San Arturo on the Texas-New mexico border, commanded by Union Colonel Marshall. Ex confederates, banditos, and Apaches are after an illegal shipment of 100 rifles. Mexican banditos and Apaches join forces to attack the cattle drive.

1865. Later. The Plainsman [1936] Wild Bill Hickok, Buffalo Bill Cody, and Cody's pregnant wife Louisa travel to Hayes City, Kansas in a stage driven by Calamity Jane. They find Breezy, the scout of Colonel Carrington at Fort Piney, with shocking news.

1865. Later. The Plainsman [1936] Hickok tells General George A. Custer at Fort Hayes that half the garrison of Fort Piney has been killed by the Sioux. Colonel Carrington urgently needs a lot more ammunition to save the Fort. General Custer tells Hickock to look for Cheyenne leader Yellow Hand and sends Captain Wood with a troop to escort the ammunition, guided by Buffalo Bill.

1865. Later. The Plainsman [1936] Captured by Yellow Hand, Calamity Jane reveals which way the ammunition is going to save Hickok. Yellow Hand releases Calamity Jane and Hickok. Hickok sends Calamity to tell General Custer and joins the ammunition train as it is attacked. Besieged for days on an island in a river, what is left of the cavalry troop is rescued by Custer and the 7th cavalry.

1865. Later. The Plainsman [1936] At Hayes City Hickok kills three cavalry deserters while trying to get the gun runner John Latimer. Custer sends Buffalo Bill to find Hickok while the 7th cavalry rides north to fight the Sioux.

1865. Later. The Plainsman [1936]. Wild Bill Hickok and Buffalo Bill learn of Custer's Last Stand from a Sioux.

1865. Later. The Plainsman [1936]. In the last scene Wild Bill Hickock is shot by Jack McCall at Deadwood South Dakota holding the Dead Man's hand. At the same time, Buffalo Bill leads the Fifth Cavalry under General Merritt into Deadwood en route to reinforce General Crook.

The events in The Plainsman [1936] seem to take just weeks or months but stretch from April 14 1865 to August 2, 1876 in real history. The prologue says that many lives and many events were combined into the plot.

Fall 1867. The Halleluhah Trail [1965]. The Peace Commission of 1867 has brought most Indians to the reservations. At a meeting on 4 November, citizens of Denver, fearing a long winter and a whiskey shortage, arrange for a massive shipment of 40 wagons full of whiskey. Several groups take interest in the shipment, including Sioux warriors under Five Barrels and Walks-Stooped-Over and two detachments of cavalry from Fort Russell under Captain Paul Slater and Colonel Thaddeus Gearhart. Thus leading to events like the Battle of Whiskey Hills and the disaster at Quicksand Bottoms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hallelujah_Trail

1868. 40 Guns to Apache Pass [1967] Cochise and his Apaches are on the warpath in Arizona. Colonel Homer E. Reed is local commander at Apache Wells. Captain Coburn, Cochise, and army deserters struggle over a shipment of 40 rifles.

1870. Broken Arrow [1950] Cochise and his Apaches have been at war for 10 years and thus since about 1860. Tom Jeffords makes a personal peace with Cochise. General Howard makes a peace treaty with Cochise. with the help of Jeffords. Cochise banishes the hostile Geronimo. Jefford's Apache wife is murdered and Jeffords leaves.

12 October 1872. Cochise makes peace treaty with General Howard. Chircahuas have reservation in their own land, with Tom Jeffords as their Indian Agent. Real history.

1872. The opening narration of Taza Son of Cochise [1954] says that Cochise made his peace treaty with General Howard in 1872.

Early 1874. Cochise dies. His son Taza (1842-1876) becomes chief. Real history.

Early 1870s? Broken Arrow TV series [1956-58]. Cochise lives on reservation with Tom Jeffords as agent. It is unknown whether the fictional dates of the series have anything to do with the historical dates.

1875. Taza Son of Cochise [1954] Cochise makes peace treaty with General Howard in 1872 and dies three years later, about 1875. Taza becomes chief. Soon after several Apaches kill white people and the Chiricahuas have to move to the San Carlos Reservation. As part of his tough negotiating tactics with Brigadier General Crook, Taza captures Fort Apache from Captain Burnett.

We may suppose that the regiment of Fort Apache [1948] and the 101st cavalry of The Adventures of Rin Tin Tin [1954-59] were stationed at Fort Apache before and/or after Captain Burnett and his unit.

At the San Carlos reservation Taza establishes an Indian Police force to administer Justice. The Sixth Cavalry captures Geronimo and brings him and his people to San Carlos. Geronimo, the idol of many Apaches, plots with Taza's brother Naiche for an uprising. After battles, Geronimo is exiled to the east at Taza's suggestion. But he manages to return somehow for later movies.

June 25-26 1876. Battle of Little Big Horn. Custer's Last Stand 25 June 1876. History. No doubt the dates are given in several movies.

7th Cavalry [1956] Captain Benson, C Troop 7th Cavalry returns to Fort Abraham Lincoln after getting married and hears of the Little Big Horn. Major Reno and Captain Benteen and their surviving men return to the fort. An inquiry is held into the battle. Captain Benson volunteers for a suicide mission to recover the bodies of the slain officers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Cavalry_(film)

1876 August 2. Wild Bill Hickok is shot by Jack McCall at Deadwood South Dakota holding the Dead Man's hand. Real history.

1876. After 25 June. The Plainsman [1936]. Wild Bill Hickok and Buffalo Bill learn of Custer's Last Stand from a Sioux.

1876. After 25 June. The Plainsman [1936]. In the last scene Wild Bill Hickock is shot by Jack McCall at Deadwood South Dakota holding the Dead Man's hand. At the same time, Buffalo Bill leads the Fifth Cavalry under General Merritt into Deadwood en route to reinforce General Crook.

The events in The Plainsman [1936] seem to take just weeks or months but stretch from April 14 1865 to August 2, 1876 in real history. The prologue says that many lives and many events were combined into the plot.

Thursday 3 September to Saturday 5 September, 1876. A Ticket to Tomahawk Arapahos under Crooked Knife (who has 7th Cavalry flags at his tepee) make trouble for the railroad struggling to gets its first train from Epitaph to Tomahawk, Colorado, and later help it.

1878. Ambush [1950] Mary Caryle captured by Apaches in Arizona under Diabito. Scout Ward Kinsman and Captain Ben Lorrison set out to rescue her and stop Diablito.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambush_(1950_film)

1879. Apache Rifles [1964] Victorio and the Mescalero Apaches are on the warpath in Arizona.
Captain Stanton returns them to the reservation and guards it against white intrusions. Scheming white men have Captain Stanton replaced by Major Perry.

Apache Rifles (1964) - IMDb

Last edited by MAGolding; July 22nd, 2017 at 10:50 PM.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 11:44 AM   #3
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Lonesome Dove
Angus Mc Crae - Probably born 1823
Woodrow Call - Probably born 1823
Served in Texas Rangers in an ill fated expition to find a rout form Sanatonio to El Paso. Fighting Buffalo Hump - a historical Comanche warrior. Of course Buffalo Hump was a common Indian name.

Kid Sheleen - probably born 1858
Frank Sheleen was a Wyoming family uprooted by the Union Pacific - so that puts him at least 1867 when the UP reached Wyoming

Lone Ranger - 1848?
The stories dated to 1865, 1869, or 1874 - depending on the serial.

Cartwrights
Ben (born 1809), Adam (born 1830), Erick "Hoss" (born 1836), Joseph "Little Joe" (born 1842). This is based on Ben claiming to have met the Pirate hero Jean Lafitte in New Orleans.

High Noon.
Will Kane (born 1838)

The Shootist.
Established by the headstone - JB Books was born 1843, died 1901.

Josey Wales (born 1832)
dated age 32 by his wanted poster. He knew Bloody Bill Anderson and the James Boys.

Paladin (born 1840)
He knew Doc Holliday.

The Gambler
Brandy Hawks (born 1840)
Knew Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill Cody.

Rawhide
Cookie was last seen in 1906 working for Diamond Jim Brady

Kwai Chang Caine (born 1847-)
Originally going to be a vehicle starring Bruce Lee himself as a hero. It was white-washed.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 02:10 PM   #4
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Interesting you call them 'cavalry vs indians'; in Britain it was 'Cowboys vs Indians' although in all honesty 'cavalry' is probably more accurate.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 08:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Lonesome Dove
Angus Mc Crae - Probably born 1823
Woodrow Call - Probably born 1823
Served in Texas Rangers in an ill fated expition to find a rout form Sanatonio to El Paso. Fighting Buffalo Hump - a historical Comanche warrior. Of course Buffalo Hump was a common Indian name.
I think that Blue Duck was also based on a real person.

What I noticed watching Lonesome Dove was that Gus was attacked by Indians and fatally wounded by an arrow and died in Miles City, Montana.

The Great Sioux War ended in the spring of 1877 as the Sioux , Cheyenne and Arapahoe came in to the reservations or went to exile in Canada. The Nez Perce came through Montana in the summer of 1877 but didn't get close to Miles City. After that the chances of getting killed by hostile Indians in Montana really dropped, and most Indians were using rifles more and more instead of bows.

Miles City was founded in the spring of 1877, thus leaving only a small overlap between hostile Indians in Montana and the existence of Miles City. And Miles City in the miniseries looked rather better established than it should have looked in 1877.

I wonder what dates may have been given in the miniseries and the original novel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Kid Sheleen - probably born 1858
Frank Sheleen was a Wyoming family uprooted by the Union Pacific - so that puts him at least 1867 when the UP reached Wyoming
Quote:
Professor Sam The Shade, The Sunrise Kid: [opening scene, singing] Well now friends. Just lend an ear, for you're now about to hear. The Ballad of Cat Ballou. It's a song that's newly made. And Professor Samuel Shade, and the Sunrise Kid are singing it for you. Cat Ballou-u-u. Cat Ballou-u-u. Cat Ballou-u-u.
Professor Sam The Shade, The Sunrise Kid: [singing] It's a hanging day in Wolf City, Wyoming. Wolf City, Wyoming in 1894. They're gonna drop Cat Ballou. Through that gallows' floor.
Thus Cat Ballou should happen in 1894.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Lone Ranger - 1848?
The stories dated to 1865, 1869, or 1874 - depending on the serial.
I remember a scene where the sheriff enters a cabin where the Lone Ranger has captured some outlaws and says he hasn't seen a mess like that since Custer's Last Stand, thus putting that episode in 1876 or later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Cartwrights
Ben (born 1809), Adam (born 1830), Erick "Hoss" (born 1836), Joseph "Little Joe" (born 1842). This is based on Ben claiming to have met the Pirate hero Jean Lafitte in New Orleans.
Or one could go by historical events in episodes. I believe the Battle of Pyramid Lake is mentioned in an episode. The first Battle of Pyramid Lake as 12 May 1860, the second 2-4 June 1860. And I think the Pony express is in at least one episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
High Noon.
Will Kane (born 1838)
Quote:
The film is set in Hadleyville, population 650, in the New Mexico Territory, on a hot summer Sunday. The 37-star flag the judge removes as he prepares to flee shows that the time frame is sometime between Nebraska's admission as the 37th state on March 1, 1867 and Colorado's admission as the 38th state on August 1, 1876.
High Noon (1952) - Trivia - IMDb

It is said Will Kane is supposed to be 30, making him born about the 1837 to 1846.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
The Shootist.
Established by the headstone - JB Books was born 1843, died 1901.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Josey Wales (born 1832)
dated age 32 by his wanted poster. He knew Bloody Bill Anderson and the James Boys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Paladin (born 1840)
He knew Doc Holliday.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
The Gambler
Brandy Hawks (born 1840)
Knew Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill Cody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Rawhide
Cookie was last seen in 1906 working for Diamond Jim Brady
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeuma View Post
Kwai Chang Caine (born 1847-)
Originally going to be a vehicle starring Bruce Lee himself as a hero. It was white-washed.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 08:19 AM   #6
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Nevada Smith 1966 was not a cavalry vs Indians movie but does touch on anti Indian racism.

It does demonstrate how easy it is to be historically wrong, dead wrong, impossibly wrong, in a film involving Indians.

Wikipedia says that Nevada Smith's parents were murdered
Quote:
In the West of the 1890s
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Smith

But the movie might take lace earlier.

The IMDB Nevada Smith goofs section says:

Quote:
When Nevada Smith is after Jessie Coe, the music playing in the saloon in the background is "Frankie and Johnnie." In a previous scene, Bowdre says he hasn't skinned an Indian since the war (Civil War) 15 years ago. Thus, the date of the story has to be no later than 1880. The first published version of the music to "Frankie and Johnny" appeared in 1904 (credited to and copyrighted by Hughie Cannon).
Nevada Smith (1966) - Goofs - IMDb

Presumably Bowdre says that when murdering Max Sand's parents. Thus they should have been killed about 1876 to 1880. The half Kiowa Max/Nevada catches up with Jessie Coe in Abiline, Texas months or years later and is badly wounded. A Kiowa woman named Neesa takes Max/Nevada to a small Kiowa camp to recover. The Kiowa are camped in the same place weeks or months later when Max/Nevada leaves to continue his search for vengeance.

In history the fierce Kiowa and their dreaded Comanche allies were often at war with the Texans, and suffered their final military defeat in the Red River or Buffalo War in 1874 to 1875 and remained on their reservation in the Indian Territory afterwards.

Did Neesa drag the badly injured Max/Nevada hundreds of miles to the Kiowa reservation?

Or did a small group of Kiowa camp near Abiline, Texas for weeks or months without any trouble with the Texans? Wouldn't the Kiowa-fearing Texans call for Texas Rangers or the army to escort the Kiowa to their distant reservation or form a posse/lynch mob to attack the Kiowa camp?

How could Kiowa near Abiline, Texas survive where they were too far from the reservation to collect rations, and when there were no more buffalo left in Texas to hunt, and when Neesa was apparently the only Kiowa woman who made a living as a dance hall girl/prostitute? By hunting rancher's cattle? that wouldn't make friends with the Texans.

Of course if Nevada Smith happens in the 1890s the presence of Kiowa near Abiline, Texas would be even more improbable.

Harold Robbins who wrote The carpetbaggers, or director Henry Hathaway, or screenwriter John Michael Hayes, could have solved that problem by having Max/Nevada catch up with Jessie Coe at a town that Indians did live near without any problems for decades. But that would mean making Neesa, and maybe Max/Nevada's mother, a member of a tribe that was more peaceful (and lucky) than the Kiowas and thus not as familiar to the audience.

For example, Max could kill Jessie Coe at Tuscon, Arizona, and Nessa could be a member of the local Tohono O'Odham or Papago tribe. They were so friendly (with whites and Mexicans) that they joined whites and Mexicans in brutally massacring over a hundred Apache women and children near Camp Grant in 1871, believing that the only good Apache was a dead Apache.

But nobody ever made movies with titles like "Tohono O'Odham Uprising" or "Papago Ambush" so movie goers would think they were as fictional as the Hekawis in F Troop.

Last edited by MAGolding; July 25th, 2017 at 08:24 AM.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 09:23 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoid marvin View Post
Interesting you call them 'cavalry vs indians'; in Britain it was 'Cowboys vs Indians' although in all honesty 'cavalry' is probably more accurate.
In the USA 'Cowboys and Indians' is very common. And somewhat accurate.

A typical conflict might involve a small group of warriors stealing a bunch of cattle, horses, or sheep and often shooting it out with sheep herders or cowboys in the process, often followed by a long pursuit by a small group of soldiers and another fight if the soldiers caught up with the raiders.

But just as most men in the west did not work as cowboys, most major Indian conflicts in the west involved cavalry instead of cowboys.

And I guess Soldiers vs Indians would be even more accurate in real life.

A brigade of infantry under General Sibley defeated the Minnesota Sioux in 1862. In 1863 Sibley and a brigade of infantry fought the Sioux in Dakota in three battles. In the Great Sioux War of 1876-77 the forces of General Terry were mostly infantry, especially after June 25 1876.

Units of the 21st infantry fought during the Modoc War of 1872-1873, though the youngest soldier of the 21st, Anton Mazzonovitch, born 30 April 1860, was not in the campaign.

Artillery batteries, manning cannon, or serving as cavalry or infantry, fought in the Modoc War, the Great Sioux War, and the Nez Perce War among others.

But the only examples I remember from movies is a train transporting infantry to rescue the heroes at a railroad work camp under attack in Union Pacific 1939, and a troop of cavalry joining with a regiment of infantry in The Command 1954.

Last edited by MAGolding; July 25th, 2017 at 09:27 AM.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 06:23 PM   #8
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Fort Starke - Always the Last to Hear

She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1948) happens in an unknown month of 1876.

Click the image to open in full size.

The calendar says 1876 but the monthly calendar page doesn't say the month. The month has thirty one days, like January, March, May, July, August, October, or December in 1876 or any other year if they use our calendar in the fictional world of the movie.

The first day of the month is a Wednesday, like March and November in 1876.

1876 Calendar

Custer's Last Stand was on 25 June 1876. Therefore the month should be July or later.

The month has 31 days, so it should be July, August, October, or December - but they didn't begin on Wednesday in 1876.

The month begins on a Wednesday, so it should be November, but November never has 31 days.

No month in the real 1876 can satisfy more than 2 of the three criteria!

News of the Little Big Horn was received in the East on July 4 1876. July would seem like the latest Fort Starke could hear about it. But the "final report" on the seventh Cavalry also says ""Sitting Bull preaching holy war. Headquarters expects a long and bloody winter." Thus the date should be much later in the year, in the fall.

So I say "Fort Starke - always the last to hear".

But then there is the movie The Command (1954) The summery in the online American Film Institute catalog says:

Quote:
In Wyoming Territory in 1878, ...
and

Quote:
... When the convoy leaves town the next day, Indians from a variety of tribes launch a series of raids against them. The ailing Janeway, who has been risking his health until he can retire with a pension, is concerned that the Indians’ persistence is fueled by news of Indian victory at Little Big Horn...
http://www.afi.com/members/catalog/D...s=&Movie=51165

I don't know if the movie or the synopsis writer made the error, but 1878 seems way too late for news of Indian victory at Little Big Horn to motivate other Indians to act aggressively.

Apparently the tribes in The Command (1954) were really the very last people on Earth to hear the news, perhaps because of a strong effort to keep them from hearing about Custer's Last Stand!

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Old August 16th, 2017, 10:13 PM   #9
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I am a little disappointed that only one person has posted any fictional dates for Cavalry and Indians movies.

So here is a list of more or less cavalry and Indians movies that have explicit dates. I would be glad if anyone adds other dates or corrects these dates. The Jeff Arnold's West blog give sup to five pistols to rate films so I give some ratings.

Six notes follow the chronological list.

1835-1846. Texas Across the River 1966.
1843. The Way West 1967.
1845 or 1846. Lone Star 1952.
1846. The Oregon Trail 1959.
1848. Davy Crockett, Indian Scout 1950.
1850s. Battle of Rogue River 1948.
1853. Conquest of Cochise 1953.
1854. Hawmps 1976.
1855. Seminole Uprising 1955.
1860s. Outlaw Treasure 1855.
1861 January. Column South 1953. 2 pistols.
1861. Revolt at Fort Laramie 1957.
1861? War Drums. 1957. 2 pistols.
1862. The Battle at Apache Pass 1952.
1862. The Last Outpost or Cavalry Charge. 1951. 2 pistols.
1964? The Last Frontier 1956.
1864 Autumn. Two Flags West 1950. four pistols.
1864? The Guns of Fort Petticoat 1957. 2 pistols.
1864 October 31 to 1865 April 19. Major Dundee 1965. 3 pistols.
1865 F Troop 1965-67.
1865. Cavalry 1936.
1865. Apache Ambush 1955.
1865. Escort West 1959.
1866 May 16. Apache Blood 1975.
1865 or 1866. Run of the Arrow 1957.
1866. Tomahawk 1951. 2 pistols.
1867 November 04. The Hallelujah Trail 1965.
1868? Ride Out for Revenge 1957.
1868. Pillars of the Sky 1956.
1868. Union Pacific 1939.
1868. Forty Guns to Apache Pass 1967. 2 pistols.
1868. Valley of the Sun 1942.
1870s. War Party 1965.
1870s. The Plunderers 1948.
1870s. A Thunder of Drums 1861. 2 pistols.
1870. Broken Arrow 1950.
1870. The Tall Women 1967.
1870. Savage Sam 1963.
1870 or 1873. Sergeants 3 1962.
1870 or 1874 Hondo 1953. 4 pistols.
1871. Oregon Passage 1958.
1871. The Red, White, and Black 1970.
1872. Around the World in 80 Days 1956.
1872. Drum Beat 1954. 2 pistols.
1873 or 1870. Sergeants 3 1962.
1873. The Last Wagon 1956.
1874 or 1870 Hondo 1953. 4 pistols.
1874. Walk the Proud Land 1956. 3 pistols.
1874. Mackenna’s Gold 1969.
1874 September. The White Buffalo 1977.
1875. Comanche 1956.
1875. Oh! Susanna 1951.
1875. Taza, Son of Cochise 1954. 2 pistols.
1876. Thunder Pass 1954.
1876. F Troop 1965-1967, “Old Ironpants” 2 November 1965.
1876. Wyoming or Bad Man of Wyoming 1940.
1876. Badlands of Dakota 1941. 3 pistols.
1876. Dirty Dingus Magee 1970.
1876. Sitting Bull 1954. 2 pistols.
1876. Warpath 1951.
1876. Bugles in the Afternoon 1952. 2 pistols.
1876. Little Big Horn 1951. 3 pistols.
1876. They Died With Their Boots On 1941. 3 pistols.
1876. Custer of the West. 1968. 2 pistols.
1876 June 24 & 25. The Time Tunnel “Massacre”.
1876 June 27? Tonka 1958.
1876 July? Buffalo Bill 1944.
1876 July or August? Red Tomahawk 1967.
1876 or 1878? The Command 1954.
1876. The Great Sioux Massacre 1965 2 pistols.
1876. Pony Soldier 1952. 2 pistols.
1876 August. Last of the Comanches 1953.
1876 Thursday 3 September to Saturday 5 September. A Ticket to Tomahawk 1950.
1876 after 25 June. Seventh Cavalry 1956. 3 pistols.

1876. She wore a Yellow Ribbon 1949.
1876 to 1877? Fort Vengeance 1953.
1876 to 1877? The Canadians 1961.
1876 to 1877. Yellowstone Kelly 1959. 3 pistols.
1877. Flaming Feather 1953. 3 pistols.
1877 Spring. Saskatchewan 1954. 2 pistols.
1878. Fort Massacre 1958. 3 pistols.
1878. Ambush 1950. 3 pistols.
1878. Arrowhead 1953 2 pistols.
1878 or 1876. The Command 1954.
1879. Apache Rifles. 1964.
1879 or 1880. Rio Grande 1950.
1880s. Two Rode Together 1961.
1880s. Ulzana’s Raid 1972.
1880. Fury at Furnace Creek 1948.
1881. The Stalking Moon 1968.
1882. I killed Geronimo 1950.
1883. A distant Trumpet 1964.
1883. Wild Stallion 1952.
1883. Geronimo 1962.
1885. Indian Uprising 1952.
1885. Apache Warrior 1957.
1885. Northwest Mounted Police 1940. 2 pistols.
1886. Apache 1954. 2 pistols.

Note 1.

Most of the dates come from statements of the fictional date in IMDB, Wikpedia, the AFI Feature Film Catalog, or in the opening credits or narration, or some combination. I assume that most of the fictional dates given in IMDB, and/or Wikipedia, and/or the AFI Feature Film Catalog are correct - but Sergeants 3 1962 has a 1870 date in Wikipedia and AFI but seems to have an 1873 date in dialog, and Hondo 1953 has a fictional date of 1870 in the Movie Mistakes website and 1874 in 1874 in AFI.

Note 2.

The Battle of the Little Bighorn was on June 25 to 26, 1876, and there are many movies and TV episodes set before, during, or after the Little Bighorn in 1876 and people familiar with them might decide to arrange the 1876 films in a different order.

Note 3.

Custer of the West Chronicles Custer's mostly fictional life from sometime during the Civil War of 1861 to 1865 up to June 25 1876.

Note 4.

They Died With Their Boots On 1941 covers Custer's life from entrance to West Point (1857 in real history) to June 25, 1876.

note 5.

There are at least three films with long but vague chronologies that have a number of more or less historic moments and thus several different orders they can be watched in.

The events in The Plainsman 1936 seem to take place over a few months unless there is a timeskip somewhere. The movie itself says that it combines many lives and many events, so some of the events are not totally real even in the fictional universe of the film. Historical events include the shooting of Abraham Lincoln 14 April 1865, Custer’s Last Stand on 25 June 1876, the ride of the Fifth Cavalry to reinforce the army of General Crook, and the assassination of Wild Bill Hickok on 2 August 1876. A number of fictional events in the film are suggested by historic events like the Fetterman Massacre 21 December 1866, the ride of “Portugee” Phillips 21 to 25 December 1866, The Battle of Beecher Island 17 to 19 september 1868, and Hickok’s fight with 7th cavalry soldiers 17 June 1870. The Plainsman 1936 could be watched in order of any one of those dates. 3 pistols.

Chief Crazy Horse 1955 has vague chronology but covers Crazy Horse’s childhood vision, connecting it with a deathbed prophecy by Conquering Bear after the Grattan Massacre in 1854, and in his adult life the Fetterman Massacre on 21 December 1866, the treaty of Fort Laramie in November 1868, the Battle of the Rosebud 17 June 1876, the death of Crazy Horse’s daughter in 1873, the Little Bighorn 25 June 1876 (all seemingly in one year) and next year the surrender of Crazy Horse 05 May 1877 and the death of Crazy Horse 05 September 1877. Chief Crazy Horse could be viewed at any one of those dates. 3 pistols.

The Novel Little Big Man by Thomas Berger begins in 1852 and continues to 1876, with Jack Crabb/Little Big Man experiencing a number of historic events during the period. The movie Little Big Man 1970 makes Jack’s experiences less historical. The movie might be watched at the time of any of the historical events in the book. Events such as the Battle of Solomon’s Fork 29 July 1857, the Battle of Plum Creek Station 22 August 1867, The Battle of the Washita 27 November 1868, Custer’s Last Stand 25 June 1876, and the murder of Wild Bill Hickok 2 August 1876, which the film places before Custer’s Last Stand.

Note 6.

There are many vague and contradictory clues to the fictional date of Fort Apache 1948 so I am just assuming very broadly that it happens sometime between 1865 to 1880 (and that General Thursday arrives on February 22). Even though the Goofs section in IMDB directly states that Fort Apache is in 1874. 5 pistols.
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Old August 17th, 2017, 04:10 AM   #10
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Thanks for a really fascinating post - made me realise just how many 'Indians/cavalry' films I haven't seen!
Mike
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