clement

Well many romans had red or blond hair (Cato, Sulla, Augustus, Nero, ...) so it not unrealistic to have one blond centurion.

I completely agree. Alexander VI was condemned by his successors because they were against him, especially Della Rovere. Whereas Della Rovere himself had a daughter from a relation, and he was nicknamed "the warrior pope" because he did command his forces himself on the battlefield (which was not necessarily a bad thing, but then it is difficult to accuse a predecessor of being violent).

Fireatwill

One blond centurion of Germanic type would be ok in the later legion but skinny, tall and delicately built Brit actors playing Romans really makes the whole thing look rather fake.

Star

Has anyone seen the 2006 film "Los Borgia"? It is dark and intense, a brilliant production - Italian and Spanish actors make it a bit more authentic. It simply needed 12 hours to cover the whole story, but with the 2.5 hours they made it work.

Star

Yes. His behavior was not unique in papal history...though more hard evidence seems to exist to prove his failings. For example, some of Alexander's love letters to his mistress Giulia Farnese have survived in the Vatican's Secret Archives and a few of them were discussed in Ludwig Pastor's History of the Popes. His children were not hidden behind the name 'nephew' and his mistress was also openly acknowledged. His rule covers part of a period of expanded temporal power, which Julius II capitalized on.

The main difference between the two popes (and arch enemies) is that Alexander aggrandized his family, whereas Julius gave everything to the church, and did not raise up any family members. His daughter grew wealthy after she re-invested a dowry and made a good marriage, and his nephew Francesco Maria della Rovere became Duke of Urbino mainly because he was the adopted heir of papal vicar Guidobaldo da Montefeltro.

clement

It should also be noted that most progressive popes, at that times, had failings in this field. For example, Paul III (though he became wiser on the throne of St Peter than he was before) had also several children. But he was the pope who forbade (without success) slavery in the new world.

On the other hand, stricter religious persons at that time (especially Luther or Calvin but also some popes of the late 16th) were reactionaries. So, personnally I don't blame those popes for their moral failings.

Fireatwill

Thanks, I'll watch that. I also hope Casare Borgia is portrayed more correctly in this production because he was an extraordinary person, admired by people like Machiavelli and even Nietzsche... In Borgia the series his portrayal is really weak.

Star

He seems to be too emotional (compared to what I've read about him), but like I said, there are endless opportunities for the writers to develop his badass side. He was never known to love any woman besides Lucrezia (fiercely protective love), so the Ursula character was unnecessary and weirdly incongruous (she seved a plot purpose only, to tie Lucrezia to a Roman convent?) and to spice up the sex scenes.

He did have many mistresses but he was discreet, and only a few of their names have survived: as a young cardinal he had relations with an unnamed Roman woman, a Roman courtesan named Fiammetta de Michelis, and a Romagnol noblewoman named Dorotea Malatesta (m. Venetian commander Caracciolo).

He will get the evil groove going, I hope... and soon!

Fireatwill

He was completely amoral. His own self interest was his chief interest and he was completely unscrupulous in striving for his goals, which basically meant more power.

His according to Nietzsche the perfect anti-christian hero who has liberated himself from moral poison of Christianity. His a true renaissance man, not in the liberal sense but in the Nietzschean sense of a man who has moved beyond good and evil... His similar to people like Julies Ceaser and there is no doubt he was a role model for Napoleon as well.

Now, to play that character as an angst-ridden guy who seems to be always conflicted on moral issues was maybe good TV but historically and philosophically completely uninteresting.

clement

Well, the first season is about his life as a young cardinal. So before the death of his brother. It was only then that he became a warrior (and a frightening one, he was able to kill several bulls in an arena with his sword. But eventually, he was completely outwitted by Della Rovere). On the other hand, I am not totally sure of that, but it seems that Cesare was essentially a tool for the French king Louis XII (and I thank him for that, though it did not help). i think that to consider him as the perfect anti-christian antihero is untrue. At that time, every ruler or statesman who had an ambition to fulfill did not care about morality. After all, the perfectly christian Charles V sacked Rome in 1527 and his most christian majesty Francis I allied himself with the turks against the Holy roman empire (whereas one pope - Julius II i think - advised other italian states to ally themselves with the turks to beat the French). When it comes to politics, there can be no such thing as morality and all the rulers of that time knew that.

Fireatwill

Hopefully his developed but the character playing him simply lacks that sort of gravitaz for such transformation... But then again we've to wait until 2012 to see what happens...