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Old November 17th, 2012, 09:58 PM   #21

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I liked this movie. I wasn't sure about an Englishmen playing Grant when you could tell his accent was not fully gone. I liked the procedures of passing the amendment and the politics behind it. I liked Thaddeus Stevens and how he talked. It was also interesting to see Lincoln as a parent, especially when he was having that discussion about his son joining the military outside the military hospital.
Grant was one of the weak points. Fortunately his role was fairly minor.

As for the procedure of passing the amendment, it does remind us that our current partisan gridlock isn't unique. I actually really liked the whole angle of the operatives who were bribing, offering patronage and twisting arms to get a few votes. We often have such a saintly picture of Lincoln that we miss the fact that he was also a down-in-the-trenches political in-fighter.

The scenes of him as an indulgent father really soften him. In one scene he has Tad on his lap in a rocking chair; that scene must have been composed to look just like a photo I have seen. Tad was an intense kid prone to uncontrollable outbursts (like his mother) and Abe was able to calm him.

I've never understood how he (or anybody else) put up with Mary, such an intense, high maintenance woman, but both of them suffered from extreme depression. Hers was externalized into wild outbursts and spend-a-holic behavior, his was turned inward to self torment. Somehow they both got something from each other and she really fell apart after Abe was killed. From what I have read about Mary, Sally Field might have been somewhat reserved in her performance. She's really a tragic character, having left her planter background to marry Lincoln who came to be the leader who ended that culture, having lost 3 of 4 sons and her husband and having completely alienated her surviving son Robert with her intense neediness.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 11:02 AM   #22
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Haven't watched the movie yet, but how funny is it that almost the same time I started reading a biography about Lincoln that movie was released

I will try to make my father watch it with me, but I don't think he will agree
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Old November 18th, 2012, 11:30 AM   #23

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Grant was one of the weak points. Fortunately his role was fairly minor.

As for the procedure of passing the amendment, it does remind us that our current partisan gridlock isn't unique. I actually really liked the whole angle of the operatives who were bribing, offering patronage and twisting arms to get a few votes. We often have such a saintly picture of Lincoln that we miss the fact that he was also a down-in-the-trenches political in-fighter.

The scenes of him as an indulgent father really soften him. In one scene he has Tad on his lap in a rocking chair; that scene must have been composed to look just like a photo I have seen. Tad was an intense kid prone to uncontrollable outbursts (like his mother) and Abe was able to calm him.

I've never understood how he (or anybody else) put up with Mary, such an intense, high maintenance woman, but both of them suffered from extreme depression. Hers was externalized into wild outbursts and spend-a-holic behavior, his was turned inward to self torment. Somehow they both got something from each other and she really fell apart after Abe was killed. From what I have read about Mary, Sally Field might have been somewhat reserved in her performance. She's really a tragic character, having left her planter background to marry Lincoln who came to be the leader who ended that culture, having lost 3 of 4 sons and her husband and having completely alienated her surviving son Robert with her intense neediness.
I thought the partisan gridlock back then reminded me of the environment of Parliament; the whole name calling and cheers and jeers from each party. I was surprised that Andrew Johnson wasn't there in during the whole amendment process.

I think that if Lincoln hadn't been so stoic about his grief with his son's death then Mary would have been better off. He could have helped her grieve. What you describe of Tad sounds like he is a spoiled kid. No offense to him, it just sounds like that.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 07:24 PM   #24

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I thought the partisan gridlock back then reminded me of the environment of Parliament; the whole name calling and cheers and jeers from each party. I was surprised that Andrew Johnson wasn't there in during the whole amendment process.

I think that if Lincoln hadn't been so stoic about his grief with his son's death then Mary would have been better off. He could have helped her grieve. What you describe of Tad sounds like he is a spoiled kid. No offense to him, it just sounds like that.
I think Andrew Johnson was by far the most underrated president. Without him, USA will be much more divided than it is now (imagine that!). And he did this by sacrificing his political career, which is impossible now and then.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #25

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Lincoln was the USA's greatest liberal president. A truly amazing man, and all the more remarkable for enjoying bisexual relationships in such a conservative age.

I'm looking forward to this movie.

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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:44 AM   #26

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I liked this movie. I wasn't sure about an Englishmen playing Grant when you could tell his accent was not fully gone.l.
Well, I won't get to see the film until January, but your comment is interesting. Jared Harris is a highly skilled actor and like most British actors can do any accent required. Besides he spent most of his youth and went to University in the US. Possibly he was directed to adopt an accent suitable for mid-19th Century America, something unlikely to be identical to today or you are influenced by his character in "Mad Men"..
Daniel Day Lewis is of course English (he has Irish ancestry, but is English born and bred) and I see that other prominent members of the cast are English, Scottish and even Australian.
Of course it came as a big surprise to most Americans that Hugh Lawrie of "House" and Damien Lewis of "Band of Brothers" and "Homeland" are both terribly upper-crust Old Etonians.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #27

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Lincoln was the USA's greatest liberal president. A truly amazing man, and all the more remarkable for enjoying bisexual relationships in such a conservative age.

I'm looking forward to this movie.

Hahah, I don't think Lincoln had bisexual relationships. That was something revealed in a book desperate to sell copies. As I remember it, the theory was that Lincoln was bisexual because he slept in the same bed as many of his friends. That was actually a practice done by virtually all men.

Unless there's something more, I find it very hard to believe.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:57 AM   #28

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And there's me thinking it was a film about vampires....

I'll get my coat.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #29

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Hahah, I don't think Lincoln had bisexual relationships. That was something revealed in a book desperate to sell copies. As I remember it, the theory was that Lincoln was bisexual because he slept in the same bed as many of his friends. That was actually a practice done by virtually all men.

Unless there's something more, I find it very hard to believe.
It's been discussed by more than just one book, and the evidence goes far beyond the fact that he slept in the same bed as many of his friends (was this really 'a practice done by virtually all men'? Evidence, please?) It was sufficiently unusual to invite comment and speculation in Lincoln's day.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:35 AM   #30

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It's been discussed by more than just one book, and the evidence goes far beyond the fact that he slept in the same bed as many of his friends (was this really 'a practice done by virtually all men'? Evidence, please?) It was sufficiently unusual to invite comment and speculation in Lincoln's day.
There are countless sources from Lincoln's day of men sleeping together in the same bed. Winters were cold, very cold. It wasn't logically to sleep elsewhere.

Your the one who made the accusation that he was bisexual so I'll let you get the evidence. Comment and speculation isn't fact or evidence. People speculate that President Obama is an atheist, a Muslim (no idea how they go together), and born in Africa. None of those are true but it's speculation.

Sexuality is much harder to prove than that.
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