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Old November 17th, 2017, 08:06 PM   #11

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Internal fighting, lack of cohesiveness, unstable leadership, declined commerce recipe for failure.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 06:20 AM   #12

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You might find this useful: Why Rome Fell | HistoryNet

It's obviously pretty general, but Gabriel has never steered me wrong as a historian.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 11:07 AM   #13

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@ publius , that was a pretty good sumation ,
the iron production was an important factor , but didn't apply before the third century
as for the Romanisation of the Barbarians armies ,I don't know , certainly serving next , with or in the Legion system must have given ideas to Germanic leaders .
stilll , their societal structure was too different to make a straight copying successful
the importance of noble families with their own retainers was the basic unit .
obedience was voluntary , no punishment system could be imposed
the authority of the leader was essentially through his own prestige and he had to consider his followers wishes ,

there is the issue of the depopulation of large areas of Gaul , I'm not aware if this was a larger phenomenon in the Western empire , the need to resettle on empty land is a weird issue ,
why would there be desolated areas , after centuries of peace , the population should have been full , even bursting at the seams
time and time again the Barbarians need for food is mentioned , in several instance this was their main claim or the one thing they insisted during negotiation , was there no food excess ?

Certainly the dysfunctional dynastic turmoil was debilitating , so was the total absence of local regional leadership , often Bishops are mentioned as negotiators or figure of authority dealing with barbarian chiefs
was there no local civilians ? why ?

Last edited by sparky; November 18th, 2017 at 11:10 AM.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 05:19 AM   #14

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparky View Post
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@ publius , that was a pretty good sumation ,
the iron production was an important factor , but didn't apply before the third century
as for the Romanisation of the Barbarians armies ,I don't know , certainly serving next , with or in the Legion system must have given ideas to Germanic leaders .
stilll , their societal structure was too different to make a straight copying successful
the importance of noble families with their own retainers was the basic unit .
obedience was voluntary , no punishment system could be imposed
the authority of the leader was essentially through his own prestige and he had to consider his followers wishes ,

there is the issue of the depopulation of large areas of Gaul , I'm not aware if this was a larger phenomenon in the Western empire , the need to resettle on empty land is a weird issue ,
why would there be desolated areas , after centuries of peace , the population should have been full , even bursting at the seams
time and time again the Barbarians need for food is mentioned , in several instance this was their main claim or the one thing they insisted during negotiation , was there no food excess ?

Certainly the dysfunctional dynastic turmoil was debilitating , so was the total absence of local regional leadership , often Bishops are mentioned as negotiators or figure of authority dealing with barbarian chiefs
was there no local civilians ? why ?
Most cases are different. You can't really generalise and lump the Goths (both) or the Franks in with the peoples who crossed the Rhine allegedly on the last day of 406 - the 2 Vandal peoples, the Alans, the Swabians and an assorted collection of others who seemed to join in for the ride. The interaction between any Germanic tribe and Hispania was complex and varied
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Old November 20th, 2017, 11:58 AM   #15

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That's something I can agree on
there were long settled nations , Foederatiis , allied , neighbors , some which had some diplomatic relations ( like the Huns )
some were settled well inside the Empire others at the borders

on the influence of Rome military on the Barbarians , a though occur to me
the tactic of the Shield wall didn't seems to be practiced before the third century , but is common by the sixth , could this be an adaptation to roman style ?

Anyone has info on this idea ?
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