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Old March 23rd, 2009, 03:09 PM   #11

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Re: The Protestant Movement


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Originally Posted by BONAFIDE View Post
- salvation by faith alone
BONAFIDE,

You mentioned the Protestant Movement in Germany. Well, even within Germany, the reformers of the Reformation were not all of the same mind. But Luther did not teach that one is saved by faith alone. He taught the one is saved BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone IN Christ Jesus alone (the "3 Solas"). If it all amounts to the same thing, well, that's theology for ya. But Luther would have insisted on keeping first things first. The word grace means "free gift," as in our word "gratuity." The beginning of wisdom is that one couldn't possibly pay God back, even if he wanted to.

The rest is self-explanatory.
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Old March 24th, 2009, 08:45 PM   #12

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Re: The Protestant Movement


Well, these four reforms were not introduced in Germany. They were some of the founding principles of the Christian Church. Some branches of the church went really remote (for the times) areas and continued practicing them, while the Church of Rome went a different path. The RC Church got involved with dark-ages politics and power brokering, which led to other abuses.

Some of the removed Churches and Orders, such as the Celtic Churches continued to practice along a purer form of Christianity while sort of drifting away from the RC Church in practice and teaching. By the time of the Crusades, there were some who believed that the old Celtic Churches were closer to the mark than the RC HQs back in Rome.

Enter Henry II, and his gaining a Papal Bull to intervene in the affairs of Ireland with military force. Then we see the Celtic Churches brought under control of the Celtic Churches in Ireland. There were slap-down measures enacted in England on the Celtic Churches as well. This went on for a long time, but there was a remnant movement in England that was philosophically tied to the ideals of the old Celtic Church. These became the Lollards, and then the reformationist, or Puritains, and so in(very loosely speaking).

And so, the roots of the reform movement can be loosely traced not just to Germany, but it was always in England and Ireland. It was perhaps in Germany that it got a little traction, but the ideas of it were always there in other places.

Salvation by faith alone was taught by Jesus and all of the early Saints, such as Patric, so far as I know. Lucius covers this well in the post above, so I will let his explanation stand on the issue of faith and grace, allowing me to generalize and cover some more ground.

There were abuses that came later, but not originally carried into Britain by the early founders of what we call the Celtic Church. But remember, the "Celtic Church" was never a sepperate organization officially. In those days, the was just "The Church". The division is more ideological than organizational.

Authority in the Bible...Yes. In the days that few could read, a cleric had to read the Bible to the people. The RC church later began reading mass in Latin, which few could understand. We fast forward to Chaucers time to see the beginning of Wyclif and his like minded fellows thinking of how to correct this. How can the RC Churches abuses continue if everybody knows what the Bible says? Ah, there is where the reform movement started to cut the RC Church's abuses off at the knees. Profittable penences, dispensations, and so on that were abuses and perversions would be exposed for what they were if the authority of the Bible is recognized.

Church is the entire community of believers...self-explanatory.
All vocations have equal merrit, even secular...that is just a way to humble the priesthood, focussing the center of worship back upon The Lord rather than "Holy Fathers" and priests and so on. Aain, all original teachings of the Christian faith that became perverted by the RC Church in the middle ages. A farmer or yeoman is just as important to God as a priest, for God is not a respector of persons.

All of these teachings were more closely observed in the old Celtic Church than in the Churches with closer ties to Rome. The issue of the Celtic Church is confusing and bears more research, but I just tossed out some generalisations. I just wanted to point out that the ideals of the reformation were not the brainchild of Martin Luther or anybody else. They were the original thought of Christ who taught them during his three year minstry. And so, the seeds of the reformation movement were sewn as soon as Jesus uttered the words. The perversions of them, and the "fix" during the reform movement came much later.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 03:54 AM   #13

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Re: The Protestant Movement


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Stanbery View Post
All of these teachings were more closely observed in the old Celtic Church than in the Churches with closer ties to Rome. The issue of the Celtic Church is confusing and bears more research, but I just tossed out some generalisations. I just wanted to point out that the ideals of the reformation were not the brainchild of Martin Luther or anybody else. They were the original thought of Christ who taught them during his three year minstry. And so, the seeds of the reformation movement were sewn as soon as Jesus uttered the words. The perversions of them, and the "fix" during the reform movement came much later.
While I tend to agree with you Richard, we have to remember the reason for the creation of this thread in the first place. All of those ideas need to be placed within the context of the Protestant movement.

You are right that they weren't new ideas to Luther and the Reformation. There were many individuals prior to Luther (and Wyclif) who saw the abuses in the Church, went back to Scripture, and determined the Church had been erroneous.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 05:48 AM   #14
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Re: The Protestant Movement


I'm going to ask the wierdest question: Have there ever been any Protestant popes?
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Old March 25th, 2009, 06:27 AM   #15
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Re: The Protestant Movement


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I'm going to ask the wierdest question: Have there ever been any Protestant popes?
Yes. The Catholic church also had openly atheist cardinals at one point.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 12:16 AM   #16
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Re: The Protestant Movement


Thank you Nick for your response. Can you give me any evidence of a Protestant pope?
Thanks,\
Frank
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Old March 26th, 2009, 12:43 AM   #17

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Re: The Protestant Movement


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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Yes. The Catholic church also had openly atheist cardinals at one point.
If that were the case, the chances of him staying a Cardinal is relatively slim. I have not heard of a Protestant Pope myself, but I would like to hear what you have.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #18
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Re: The Protestant Movement


what happens if a protestant in the disguise of a catholic worms his way into the papacy, nobody would know, after all there have been pseudo popes, anti-popes, Jewish converted popes.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 07:13 AM   #19

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Re: The Protestant Movement


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Originally Posted by fshap@013.net.il View Post
what happens if a protestant in the disguise of a catholic worms his way into the papacy, nobody would know, after all there have been pseudo popes, anti-popes, Jewish converted popes.
I'm sure it's quite possible, but unlikely. While there are flashes of Protestant ideology prior to Luther, Protestantism is a relatively modern entity and with that major divisions between the two. With the major divisions politically and theologically, it's difficult to entertain the idea.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 07:29 AM   #20
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Re: The Protestant Movement


Comet: you agree with me that Protestantism has been around for at least 500 years. During that time some distinct ideologies have evolved such as liberal democracy, fascism, nazism, communism, and more. Bear with me: suppose a group of people, in this case Protestants, were intent on destroying one of these ideologies with its associated establishments. To achieve this aim, isn't it possible that this group of radical protestants wishing to further their aims, (such as we saw with Pope John Paul II who was one of the key instigators in toppling communism), realized that only by recruiting the most powerful Christian forces in the world today, namely Roman Catholicism, would enable a successful result. Hence the need to either truly or falsely enter the heart of Catholicism, namely, the Papal See, and bring about the desired results. Take into consideration that in the past every anti-pope, pseudo-pope, convert-pope had his own singular agenda.
Enjoy, Frank
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