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Old March 11th, 2016, 11:19 PM   #1

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Medieval Bosnia, Ragusa and Serbia


A group of us has made an agreement to open a thread about medieval Bosnia, Ragusa and Serbia. So here it is, a thread about anything connected with three aforementioned countries. Here are some half-random images:

Stephen Tvrtko I, King of the Serbs, Bosnia and whatnot. He's also the most powerful Bosnian ruler ever
Click the image to open in full size.

Stephen Dušan, Emperor of the Serbs and the Greeks
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Stephen Tomašević, the last ruler of both Serbia and Bosnia
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St Blasius, saint patron of Ragusa
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Last edited by Tsar; March 11th, 2016 at 11:37 PM.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 01:42 AM   #2
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Stephen Dušan, King of Serbia and Emperor of the Serbs and the Greeks had more in common with Roman empire, known in the west as ERE or Byzantium and second Bulgarian empire. His mother is Teodora of Bulgaria from House Smilets, his maternal grandmother is niece of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII Palaiologos ergo belongs to House Palaiologos. His wife is Helena of Bulgaria from House Shishman, etc, etc.

Absolutely the same with Bulgarian emperors . Ana-Neda of Serbia, Empress of Bulgaria is from House of Nemanjich, daughter of Serbian King Stefan Uroš II Milutin and granddaughter of George I of Bulgaria (House of Terter). All these royal relations are very close to inbreeding, my humble opinion. One big 'happy' blue blood family.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 01:46 AM   #3

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I don't think that there was any inbreeding, at least I didn't notice so. There were some attempts, but the Church, as far as I have notice, refused them all.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 01:56 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Tsar View Post
I don't think that there was any inbreeding, at least I didn't notice so. There were some attempts, but the Church, as far as I have notice, refused them all.
I thought it was clear that it was an intentional exaggeration I was not implying that they had the degree of inbreeding of House of Habsburg for example. Just see these royal marriages and their offspring through centuries and you'll see how close they become (the houses i mean)

Anyway my intention was not to raise the inbreeding issue (a problem of all houses in the world to a certain extent), but to urge you not to exclude other entities in the area during this timeframe. After all Stephen Dušan was the Emperor of the Greeks as well

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; March 12th, 2016 at 02:12 AM.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 02:07 AM   #5

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This might be interesting:

Click the image to open in full size.

Stephen Tvrtko I Kotromanic, King of Serbs, Bosnia and Seaside (that would be correct translation?),charter to the Republic of Ragusa.

" I’m very pleased to glorify You just like it should be done with profound faith and to address You with these pious words, oh You holy martyr Stephen. You prayed to God for those who stoned You, saying: "forgive them God, they don’t know what they’re doing". Because of that, oh my sufferer prey to God to my Lord even more for the one who always evoke You and recognize You as the Christ’s victim. For the one who does all the right things for his God invoking Your help because of Your prey I received God’s blessing and I was granted the honour of the king’s scepter of my parents and my Serbian ancestors, rulers and kings. So I rule and correct all defects in my kingdom according to my parents’ life and imperial rules. Doing so I was given the seaside.

The region of Župa Dračevica is the place very suitable to found a town. I called my God then and the holy martyr and archpriest Stephen and I built a town in Holy Stephen’s name on the very place. I named it after the Holy Stephen. My kingdom decided to set there a square for trade in salt.

And that news came to Dubrovnik. Soon after they sent me their ruler, the duke Dragoje Gučić with the request not to establish on that place the trade in salt. He also said that Dubrovnik had old contracts with all rulers of Raška not to open squares for trade in salt anywhere at the seaside except in places where they had already existed. After reading of contracts between Dubrovnik and rulers of Raška not to set new squares for trade in salt except on places where they already existed – my kingdom did not want me to change contracts so I had to confirm the earlier contracts with Dubrovnik. My kingdom expressed deep regret to Dubrovnik claiming: not to ever set a square for trade in salt in that town or beneath it. It was said that all these lines in contract were not to be changed by kingdom or by my son or by any member of my relatives until Dubrovnik or its refinement changes it or lose it in one way or another, they or their children and their successors.

Witnesses of this: court clerk Mirko Radojević, the duke Vlatko Vlković and the duke Pavle Jablanić. It was signed in the year of 1382 after Christ, the second day of December. It was written in Bišće in Podgrada.

+ Stefan Tvrtko, By Lord's mercy The King of Serbs, Bosnia and Seaside.''


Resource: "Boka – collection of works from science, culture and art" nr. 15-16, Herceg Novi 1984., pages nr 475-477.

I'm really interested in relations of Serbia/Bosnia with Ragusa/Venice.

Last edited by BadWolf; March 12th, 2016 at 02:11 AM.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 02:27 AM   #6

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Originally Posted by At Each Kilometer View Post
I thought it was clear that it was an intentional exaggeration I was not implying that they had the degree of inbreeding of House of Habsburg for example. Just see these royal marriages and their offspring through centuries and you'll see how close they become (the houses i mean)

Anyway my intention was not to raise the inbreeding issue (a problem of all houses in the world to a certain extent), but to urge you not to exclude other entities in the area during this timeframe. After all Stephen Dušan was the Emperor of the Greeks as well
Well, first we'd have to make clear what "the area" is. The Balkans didn't exist as a term prior to the late 19th century. Serbia, Bosnia and Ragusa were very tightly connected in virtually any aspect. They were practically one big system. There is no country, except for maybe the Byzantine Empire in the cultural aspect, that had more things in common to Serbia than these two, for example.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 02:31 AM   #7

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@BadWolf
"Pomorje" and "Zapadne Strane" are actually Serbian names for two regions of present-day Greece, they have been mechanically taken over in Bosnia. "Pomorje" was soon replaced with "Primorje", and what's somewhat weird, it seems that "Zapadne Strane" actually started to be applied to some region of Bosnia.

I can write a bit about Ragusan trade with Bosnia and Serbia if that's what interests you.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 02:35 AM   #8

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@BadWolf
I can write a bit about Ragusan trade with Bosnia and Serbia if that's what interests you.
If it's not a problem for you, I always enjoyed trade and "business" deals between countries.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 02:56 AM   #9
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Quote:
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Well, first we'd have to make clear what "the area" is. The Balkans didn't exist as a term prior to the late 19th century. Serbia, Bosnia and Ragusa were very tightly connected in virtually any aspect. They were practically one big system. There is no country, except for maybe the Byzantine Empire in the cultural aspect, that had more things in common to Serbia than these two, for example.
I am aware of this term. I do believe that nowadays, or hundred-two hundred years ago, these territories/states had and continue to have lot in common in every aspect, including culture, but you and respectable BadWolf are talking about high middle ages and I believe things were rather different back then before Ottomans and their conquest. Just my two cents.
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Old March 12th, 2016, 02:57 AM   #10

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Okay, let's see

The transportation of goods in medieval Bosnia and Serbia was being done with caravans. There are multiple factors that influenced this: the "western Balkans" is full of mountains, the Roman roads weren't so functional any longer and the big rivers that could be used lied on periphery of Bosnia and Serbia.

The caravans require their owners to have horses. That's why the caravans were formed exclusively by the Vlachs who lived around the city of Ragusa.

Serbia and Bosnia, of course, weren't always the final destinations. The trade was also going through their territories to Bulgaria, Wallachia and Hungary. But the caravans that were leaving Ragusa would never reach these countries. Their destinations were in central Bosnia, near the Drina around Višegrad and in the valley of the river Lim. So how did the goods come to further destinations?
(continuing in the next post)
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