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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old May 11th, 2012, 11:02 AM   #51

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As for my list however I'd have,

Best:
Alfred (Even though he was Anglo-Saxon, he and Charlemagne have rmained the two greatest leaders of the cruelly termed 'Dark ages')

Canute ( A Dane, Chookie, May I point out)
Henry II
Edward I
George VI
I deliberately left out several ones you could be either mediocre or controversial.

Worst:
Edward the Confessor
Stephen
John
Edward II
Henry VIII
Charles I
Edward VIII (What is it with the Eighth king?)
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Old May 11th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #52

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Originally Posted by okamido View Post
Why James I?
Don't like him much. He was arrogant enough to push his agenda without consulting Parliament. His absolutist view of the monarchy was (to me) the beginning of the end for the system as it existed then (we all know what happened in 1688...).
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Old May 13th, 2012, 02:42 AM   #53

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Great topic .

I am a big fan of the Henry's

BEST

Henry 1st

Henry 2nd

Henry 5th

Henry 8th

Also though technically not a king I like Oliver Cromwell

WORST

King John (despite him being the king at the time of Magna Carta )

Richard 2nd

Richard 3rd

King Edward's 2nd & 3rd
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Old May 13th, 2012, 09:31 AM   #54
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Excellent choices, especially for the worst! But I would also add Richard I, 'Lionheart'. A good warrior, but a mediocre king and in general a selfish and brutish man.
Apart from the fact that women are in that list.
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Old May 13th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #55
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I know this thread is about kings only, and those of England, but here's a related article with both kings AND queens in it, including those of Britain.

Included amongst our worst monarchs is the bigoted Protestant-murderer Mary I; the corrupt King Stephen; the psychotic Henry VIII; and James I, the big-tongued, dribbling Scotsman who sent an English hero to the scaffold to appease the Spanish.

Our worst monarch? Britain's spoilt for choice...


By Andrew Roberts (click name for more of his articles)
16th July 2008
Daily Mail

They include, among their number, the vain, the greedy and the downright corrupt. There are adulterers, swindlers and cowards. Yet this group also shares one thing in common. In their own lifetimes, they were the most powerful individuals in the land.

English Heritage has just conducted a poll to find Britain's Most Useless Monarch and it's a pretty crowded field. The eventual 'winner' has just been announced as George IV. His lazy, spendthrift nature and unpleasantness to his wife Queen Caroline seems to have won him the accolade.

But so terrible have many of our kings and queens been that a closer look at their misrule serves to illustrate just how blessed we are to live in a more enlightened age. So here, in ascending order of uselessness, is my own list of those who have disgraced the throne.

Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.
Morally suspect monarchs: King Stephen (l) was corrupt, Mary Tudor (c) was bigoted, and Henry VIII (r) was psychotic

No. 10 is James I, who has been described as a 'foul-mouthed, conceited pacifist without royal dignity'. This was particularly proved when he kissed one of his male favourites full on the lips during his own coronation. It couldn't have been a pleasant experience, because historians report that due to some physiological abnormality the king's tongue was too big for his mouth, and kept lolling out.

It was James who sent the great Elizabethan seafaring hero Sir Walter Raleigh to the scaffold in order to appease the Spanish, and filled his government with Scottish friends he had brought south with him, to the exclusion of better-qualified Englishmen. (Remind you of anyone in power today?) If anyone deserved a Gunpowder Plot against him in 1605, it was James.

But we are often better off with the devil we know. Because coming in at No. 9 is James's grandson, James II, who failed to learn the lesson of the English Civil War - which had cost his father, Charles I, his head - and continued to believe in the Divine Right of Kings.

By trying to force Roman Catholicism on to the British Isles, he deservedly lost his throne in 1688, and in a fit of pique he dropped the Great Seal of England into the River Thames as he fled London for France, idiotically believing that this would somehow prevent his son-in-law (and nephew) and daughter, William and Mary, from governing successfully.

At least James II did not manage to plunge his country into a particularly long civil war, like No 8 on my list, King John (1167-1216), who fought against his own barons, on one occasion so disastrously that he lost his baggage train in quicksand in the Wash.

Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.
Two more candidates for Britain's Most Useless Monarch: George IV (l) was indolent, while Edward VIII (r) was petulant

'John was a bad character,' writes one chronicler. 'His country had some experience of his selfcentred double-dealing. Nobody with sense trusted him. It followed that his unsanctioned promises were worthless.'

He is best remembered for the Magna Carta, which enshrined many freedoms we still enjoy today but which he had to be forced to sign by his nobles.

Yet at least John stayed on the throne, unlike our No. 7, Edward VIII, a profoundly irresponsible monarch who put his love affair with Mrs Simpson before his duty to the Empire.

Knowing that he was going to abdicate the next month, Edward nonetheless outrageously told the unemployed miners of South Wales in November 1936 that: 'Something should be done to get them at work again.' This raised hope among them that the Government might save their jobs, which Edward knew was not the case.

Edward VIII was not a psychopathic murderer, however, unlike No. 6, an appropriate position for Henry VIII as it was also the number of wives he had, most of whom he harried, bullied and generally maltreated. To behead not one but two wives, and to invent the whole concept of divorce in order to get shot of two more, would win Henry a place in any list of rogues.

But it was his cruel, cynical brutality towards everyone who crossed him in life - male as well as female - that makes Henry VIII particularly unpleasant. When he knew he was dying, he had the handsome, intelligent young poet the Earl of Surrey executed beforehand, supposedly for treason, but really because he was jealous of his looks, talent and charm.

Henry was a strong monarch, however, unlike the utterly pathetic bisexual Edward II and Richard II, who tie for fourth place. Edward II scandalised the court and angered his father Edward I by his passionate attachment to the courtier Piers Gaveston, whose greed and arrogance was plain to everyone, except the besotted Edward.

After Gaveston was assassinated by the nobles, Edward became infatuated with another courtier, Hugh Despenser, on to whom he lavished land and riches.

When finally Despenser fell from power in January 1327, Edward II was captured and killed at Berkeley Castle, reputedly by the insertion of a red-hot poker into his rectum, in order to conceal the murder. A nasty way to go, but if anyone deserved it, it was he.

Tying at joint fourth is Richard II, who just like Edward II, fell under the influence of a disastrous favourite, Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford, who historians record was 'a silly, vain, irresponsible man'.

It was in Richard II's time that disastrous foreign adventures bankrupted the government, causing him to try to raise the hated poll tax, which led to the Peasants' Revolt of 1381.

And so we arrive at the finalists in our royal gallery of shame. In third place comes English Heritage's top choice, George IV, whose self-indulgence, hatred of his kindly father, 'mad' George III (who wasn't actually mad but suffered from the blood disease porphyria), swinishness to his (admittedly dreadful) wife Princess Caroline, and appalling over-spending during straitened times, meant that the newspapers openly celebrated his death in 1830.

Indolent and obese (he was nicknamed 'the Prince of Whales'), his scandalous private life - he married his mistress illegally - and his refusal to allow his wife to attend his 1821 coronation (she hammered on the closed doors of Westminster Abbey begging to be let in) held up the monarchy to widespread ridicule.

In second place comes Mary Tudor (1516-1558), who cruelly burned at the stake no fewer than 300 Protestants - each execution having her personal sanction. A puppet ruler for her hated religious fanatic husband, Philip II of Spain, Bloody Mary was responsible for the burning to death of the saintly Bishop Nicholas Ridley and the preacher Hugh Latimer. For these and other crimes, she deserves the dishonour of being our worst ever queen.

In my opinion, however, the most useless British monarch of all time was someone of whom few have even heard. King Stephen usurped his uncle Henry I's throne in 1135, outmanouevring both his own elder brother Theobald and the rightful heir, Henry's daughter the Empress Matilda.

He seized the Treasury, crowned himself, gave Cumbria to the Scots to buy them off, paid Danegeld to appease the Danes and then plunged England into a series of four civil wars (known as The Anarchy) between 1138 and 1154. These left the country ravaged, impoverished and weaker than at any other time before or since.

It is a doleful list of cruelty, disaster and failure. But we should remember that monarchy is, by its very nature, something of a lottery. And just as Britain has had the misfortune to endure some very bad rulers, so too have we enjoyed some truly great ones.

Indeed, we are particularly blessed to have a reigning monarch today who undoubtedly stands in the top five, alongside such illustrious predecessors as Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria, Edward III, George V and George III. Hard-working, devout, dutiful, good-natured and respected throughout the world, the Queen is everything a nation looks for in a head of state.

If she has her mother's longevity - and there is every indication from her state of health that she does - she will beat Queen Victoria's record reign of 63 years, seven months and three days on the throne, on September 16, 2015.

If monarchy's a lottery, our age may just have struck the jackpot.


Read more: Our worst monarch? Britain's spoilt for choice... | Mail Online

Last edited by Brunel; May 13th, 2012 at 09:55 AM.
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Old May 13th, 2012, 09:43 AM   #56

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Lol, the Mail, atrocious stuff.
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Old May 13th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #57

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According to that Mail article the worst thing Edward VIII did was to give false hope to some miners.
He was a naive, selfish snob who betrayed state secrets to the Germans, a far worse crime than making a inappropriate speech about job prospects.

Then again, the Mail thinks the presence of Polish workers in the country is a crime so it's probably par for the course.
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Old June 17th, 2012, 08:42 AM   #58

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I have differing opinions on the choices below, although I do respect everyone’s opinions/choice.

Mary I (appearing on the worst list regularly):

She was the FIRST Queen of England. She established the gender free authority of the Crown, if we are going by achievements in regards to best/worst Monarch then surely this is a positive and momentous achievement. She ascended the throne with popular support. The last women who tried to take the throne in her own right was Matilda in 1141, she did not succeed and was chased out of London before she could be crowned, up until Mary women had generally be villianised when they took part in political matters. Mary is often remembered for the burning of 274 Protestants during her reign, but Henry VIII burned religious heretic too, so Mary was not along in this. During Mary I reign she strengthened the position of Parliament by using it for her religious settlement, she restored and strengthened the administrative structure of the Church and she maintained the Navy and reformed the militia. Although I would not site her as the one of the best monarchs I also think she has had a bad press. If she had given birth to the next Queen/King of England I doubt very much she would be remember as 'Bloody Mary' as she is today.

Richard I (appearing on the best list regularly):

Richard spent a total of 6 months of his reign in England. He was reported to have said he would sell London if there had been a buyer rich enough. He was the first Northern European Prince to pledge himself to the crusade to recovery of the Holy Lands from Saladin. England was hard pressed for tax to pay for his wars, and he sold off much of what his father had accumulated. Richard was forced to spend the last part of his reign, trying to recover his empire in France. Why is he remembered fondly I don’t know, particularly because Richard himself seemed to have a lack of interest in England and his subjects there. Although he was considered a ‘Warrior King’ I don’t think he achieved anything remarkable during his reign. Perhaps because John’s disastrous reign came after Richard’s it made Richard look good!

I’m still considering who my list of worst and best are!
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Old June 17th, 2012, 08:58 AM   #59
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Then again, the Mail thinks the presence of Polish workers in the country is a crime so it's probably par for the course.
It's not a crime but it's wrong when there are millions of British people struggling to find work.
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Old June 17th, 2012, 09:10 AM   #60
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I have differing opinions on the choices below, although I do respect everyone’s opinions/choice.
Quote:
Mary I (appearing on the worst list regularly):

Mary is often remembered for the burning of 274 Protestants during her reign, but Henry VIII burned religious heretic too, so Mary was not along in this.
Just 81 Catholics were executed during Henry's reign, and a lot of them were executed not simply because they were Catholics but because they had committed capital offences, so would have been executed anyway regardless of their religion. Those 81 came in a 38 year reign.

Compare that to Bloody Mary who murdered 289 people simply because they were Protestant in just five years.

In this respect Mary I was far more bloody and tyrranical than Henry VIII.

Henry VIII was a secular ruler who overthrew the Pope's control over the secular throne of England. The Pope was not the legitimate ruler of England. Henry VIII was. As Psalm 75:7 says: "It is God alone who judges; he decides who will rise and who will fall." And it was the Pope who lost - that should tell you something. The Pope was trying to usurp the king's rightful authority under God.

Quote:
During Mary I reign she strengthened the position of Parliament by using it for her religious settlement, she restored and strengthened the administrative structure of the Church and she maintained the Navy and reformed the militia.
And she lost Calais to the French.

In fact, Mary's foreign policy was disastrous for England. She relied too much on her Catholic Spanish advisers who cared nothing for England and who worked to better the position of Spain as opposed to England. Philip used his marriage to Mary to advance the cause of Spain with no thought as to the impact of his policies on England.

All this came whilst she was executed 289 innocent Protestants. It's no wonder the English rather hate her.

Last edited by Brunel; June 17th, 2012 at 09:21 AM.
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