Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 23rd, 2016, 10:27 AM   #21
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Miami-Gardens, Florida
Posts: 1,053

I don't say he's over rated. He just ended a 700+ war that Romans and Persians have been fighting over. But I do see him as the only emperor that end it. However he faced political problems within the empire as his goal was too generally bring the roman empire back to its potential. Just had Justinian did earlier. But the problem was high taxes on his citizens. But victories comes at a big cost after defeating the Persians.
Azarius Balios is offline  
Remove Ads
Old October 25th, 2016, 09:42 AM   #22

Fabius Maximus's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Jul 2010
From: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 368

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obey Bayezid View Post
The book is "The Empire that Would Not Die: The Paradox of Eastern Roman Survival, 640-740"
Thanks, I'll make sure to check it out.
Fabius Maximus is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 02:24 AM   #23

SufiMystic's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Oct 2016
From: On a magic carpet
Posts: 340

Heraclius is a representative of the decadent Roman empire, a tyrannical and oppressive regime which persecuted its own people. See Monophysite Christianity and also persecution of Jews.

Heraclius is over-rated. Khalid ibn Walid was a better military commander, winning over 100 battles and liberating both Roman Syria and Persian Iraq in just four years. Caliph Umar was a better leader, as evidenced by the peaceful capture of Jerusalem.

The treaty of Caliph Umar with the Patriarch of Jerusalem under which the Romans surrendered the city gave guarantees of civil and religious liberty to Christians. Also for the first time after almost 500 years of oppressive Roman rule, Jews were once again allowed to live and worship inside Jerusalem. Heraclius and his government deserved to be overthrown; they are the representatives of a society which had failed. Fortunately, it was replaced by something better.

Last edited by SufiMystic; November 1st, 2016 at 02:28 AM.
SufiMystic is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 04:46 AM   #24
Suspended until March 19th, 2018
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
Posts: 1,180

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
Heraclius is a representative of the decadent Roman empire, a tyrannical and oppressive regime which persecuted its own people. See Monophysite Christianity and also persecution of Jews.
You are extremely uninformed. This is called “heresy”. The Muslims also had and still have it throughout their history. Even today in the 21th century the kindergarten nearby my apartment is indeed a far more civilized place than Middle East is where Sunnis and Shias are squabbling over doctrines. – So what exactly made you thinking that the Muslims were specific better and do not clash with each other over doctrines?


Quote:
Heraclius is over-rated. Khalid ibn Walid was a better military commander, winning over 100 battles and liberating both Roman Syria and Persian Iraq in just four years. Caliph Umar was a better leader, as evidenced by the peaceful capture of Jerusalem.
Khalid did not liberate. He conquered. And that has more to do with the fact that Byzantines and Persians fought for a 26 years grim war combined with plague that hit settled cultures(such of Byzantine and Persians) more than pastoralic (such of Arabs), and thus the conquest was eased for the Arabs.

And the Christians and Persians(plus others people) have also examples of taking cities without fight, so this not a novelty Khalid brought.

Quote:
The treaty of Caliph Umar with the Patriarch of Jerusalem under which the Romans surrendered the city gave guarantees of civil and religious liberty to Christians. Also for the first time after almost 500 years of oppressive Roman rule, Jews were once again allowed to live and worship inside Jerusalem. Heraclius and his government deserved to be overthrown; they are the representatives of a society which had failed. Fortunately, it was replaced by something better.
What an ethnocentric view which is utterly nonsense.

The Jews were indeed allowed to live as underclass citizens in Byzantium. The reason why there were restrictions on Jews was dated back to the Jewish rebellion in the first century under the reign of Vespasin/Titus. And also during the seventh century the Jews collaborated with the Persians against the Byzantines, so Heraclius’ actions towards the Jews was based on political motives rather than purely religious. And by the way even your own beloved Muhammad himself massacred, forced converted the Jews and distributed their women as sexslaves to his men where he picked the most attractive to himself.

After the Muslims conquered Middle East the Christians were subjugated as underclass citizens where they were imposed discriminatory Islamic socio-economic laws upon them where they should pay more in taxes and have a status as underclass citizens in terms of limited rights. Once the Christians being around 90% of the population in Middle East, the number of Christians has been reduced to around 10% today after centuries of Jizya and dhimmi under the rule of Muslims. – So your idea that the Muslims brought religious liberty and liberation is utterly nonsense and merely an expression of your ethno-religious pride.

Anyway that “religious liberty” also existed under the rules of Christian when they ruled over the Muslims.

Last edited by El Cid; November 1st, 2016 at 04:57 AM.
El Cid is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 05:33 AM   #25
Suspended until March 15th, 2018
 
Joined: May 2015
From: Germany
Posts: 1,104

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
Heraclius is a representative of the decadent Roman empire, a tyrannical and oppressive regime which persecuted its own people. See Monophysite Christianity and also persecution of Jews.
The Umayyads and Abassids were also quite skilled in persecuting and forcing the payment of Jizya taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
Khalid ibn Walid was a better military commander, winning over 100 battles and liberating both Roman Syria and Persian Iraq in just four years.
"Liberating" by raiding and slaughtering tens of thousands simply because of the greed for booty?
Swagganaut is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 06:23 AM   #26

Kirialax's Avatar
Megas Domestikos
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: Blachernai
Posts: 4,259
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
See Monophysite Christianity and also persecution of Jews.
This whole monophysite persecution thesis is wildly overblown and not accepted by contemporary scholars. The situation in the Aramaic world is much, much more complicated. See, for example, Tannous, Jack. “In Search of Monotheletism.” Dumbarton Oaks Papers 68 (2014): 29–67.
Kirialax is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 10:10 AM   #27

SufiMystic's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Oct 2016
From: On a magic carpet
Posts: 340

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
You are extremely uninformed....
Thank you for this enjoyable post.

Of course, the abilities and beliefs of the Arabs had absolutely nothing at all with their success. The Arab world had nothing to offer. That's why their achievement disappeared after a few years... oh wait. It didn't. They founded a culture that has lasted 1,400 years. Funny, that. Of course, there must be nothing to it...

You're right of course. My comments are "Uninformed", "utterly nonsense" (I noticed you used this exact phrase twice), "ethnocentric", etc. Of course, none of these accusations could be made at your own comments...

Thank you for white washing the persecution of Jews, which were ordered to be executed by Heraclius. As for your other comments, these are beneath consideration and simply serve to show your own lack of education. Which is rather ironic, considering your claims about my own post.

Still, I thank you for taking the time to reply. It's good to see people really care passionately about history and this is encouraging for our future. The real danger I think is those who really don't care either way. Those people are dangerous, as if we don't learn the mistakes of the past we are in danger of repeating them.

Good day to you.
SufiMystic is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 10:25 AM   #28
Suspended until March 15th, 2018
 
Joined: May 2015
From: Germany
Posts: 1,104

The problem is that El-Cid is right with pretty much every point, except maybe the Jew-part. Persecutions of Jews were indeed a heavy problem in the Byzantine Empire and the Visigothic Kingdom, and they certainly were not only politically motivated. However, anti-Judaic progroms also occured under Islamic states, not too mention the whole Dhimmie-thing.
Swagganaut is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 01:30 PM   #29
Suspended until March 19th, 2018
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
Posts: 1,180

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagganaut View Post
The problem is that El-Cid is right with pretty much every point, except maybe the Jew-part. Persecutions of Jews were indeed a heavy problem in the Byzantine Empire and the Visigothic Kingdom, and they certainly were not only politically motivated. However, anti-Judaic progroms also occured under Islamic states, not too mention the whole Dhimmie-thing.


Perhaps if you want to debate with me then try at least to quote the sentence instead of making straw man.

Heraclius’ actions towards the Jews was mostly motivated by the fact that a lots of Jews indeed collaborated with the Persians under the war, and thus the actions of Heraclius rather was political than purely of religious matter. Since I don’t have works that deal with exact that topic on my bookshelf, this could be informative for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish...inst_Heraclius

Anyway I never stated that it was “only politically motivated” as you have fabricated it and putted in my mouth. I said that Heraclius action was “based on political motives rather than purely religious”.

Also I never made any statements about Visigothic Spain, or hinted anything about the degree of persecutions.
El Cid is offline  
Old November 1st, 2016, 01:38 PM   #30
Suspended until March 19th, 2018
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
Posts: 1,180

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
Thank you for this enjoyable post.

(...)
You are welcome. But a large chunk of your post doesn’t really address any of the points I made. Some few uninformed sentences you have made deserve a respond thought:


Quote:
Thank you for white washing the persecution of Jews, which were ordered to be executed by Heraclius.
As already explained Heraclius’ actions toward the Jews did not come out of nothing as it was exacerbated under the Byzantine-Persian war where (some) Jews cooperated with the Persians. You probably did not know it, but try eventual to check that link in my previous post.

Quote:
As for your other comments, these are beneath consideration and simply serve to show your own lack of education. Which is rather ironic, considering your claims about my own post.
That Muhammad massacred, forced converted Jews and distributed their women as sexslaves and even picked the most attractive female for himself are facts. That you don’t like the information I am giving you is not surprising and neither my problem.

Quote:
Good day to you.
To you as well.
El Cid is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History

Tags
heraclius, overrated



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Emperor Heraclius and his legacy Thessalonian Medieval and Byzantine History 16 September 22nd, 2011 05:51 AM
Egypt: under or over rated? Satuf Ancient History 120 August 28th, 2011 10:13 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.