Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 20th, 2017, 06:16 AM   #11
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Gränna, Sweden
Posts: 18

And, just for the sake, and because this is all about how we read things.

Gregory doesn't state that they came from Pannonia, what he states is

Tradunt enim multi, eosdem de Pannonia fuisse degressus
translated to

Many relate that they came from Pannonia...
So, I don't think it is fair to blame Gregory for this as he is very clear about that it is their words, not his own!

It also points out a very common problem, and that is that we don't read the sources as properly as we should, but instead try to find confirmation of our thoughts in the sources...
Yngwe is offline  
Remove Ads
Old June 21st, 2017, 07:55 AM   #12
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Gränna, Sweden
Posts: 18

So, to see if I can get some reaction, I claim that the geats in Beowulf weren't götar from todays Sweden, but Jutar/Jutes from todays Denmark.
Yngwe is offline  
Old June 24th, 2017, 12:07 PM   #13
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Gränna, Sweden
Posts: 18

Nope, no reaction, the most important Anglp-Saxon work, and one of its oldest disputes ... and no response.


From Beowulf. Ongenthows offspring is Ottar, and he is apparently killed as his brother Onela after this becomes the king
There was strife and struggle 'twixt Swede and Geat
o'er the width of waters; war arose,
hard battle-horror, when Hrethel died,
and Ongentheow's offspring grew
strife-keen, bold, nor brooked o'er the seas
pact of peace, but pushed their hosts
to harass in hatred by Hreosnabeorh
From Ynglingatal
By Danish arms the hero bold,
Ottar the Brave, lies stiff and cold.
To Vendel's plain the corpse was borne;
By eagles' claws the corpse is torn,
Spattered by ravens' bloody feet,
The wild bird's prey, the wild wolf's meat.
The Swedes have vowed revenge to take
On Frode's earls, for Ottar's sake;
Like dogs to kill them in their land,
In their own homes, by Swedish hand
From Historia Norwegia
The successor to the throne was his son Ottar, who was assassinated in Vendel, a law province of Denmark, by his namesake, a Danish jarl, and this man's brother, Fasta. His son Adils
and from Ynglingasagan
Ottar was the name of King Egil's son who succeeded to the
domains and kingdom after him. He did not continue friendly with
King Frode, and therefore King Frode sent messengers to King
Ottar to demand the scatt which Egil had promised him. Ottar
replied, that the Swedes had never paid scatt to the Danes,
neither would he; and the messengers had to depart with this
answer. Frode was a great warrior, and he came one summer with
his army to Sweden, and landed and ravaged the country. He
killed many people, took some prisoners, burned all around in the
inhabited parts, made a great booty, and made great devastation.
The next summer King Frode made an expedition to the eastward;
and when King Ottar heard that Frode was not at home in his own
country, he went on board his own ships, sailed over to Denmark,
and ravaged there without opposition. As he heard that a great
many people were collected at Sealand, he proceeds westward to
the Sound, and sails north about to Jutland; lands at Lymfjord;
plunders the Vend district; burns, and lays waste, and makes
desolate the country he goes over with his army. Vatt and Faste
were the names of the earls whom Frode had appointed to defend
the country in Denmark while he was abroad. When the earls heard
that the Swedish king was laying Denmark waste, they collected an
army, hastened on board their ships, and sailed by the south side
to Lymfjord. They came unexpectedly upon Ottar, and the battle
began immediately. The Swedes gave them a good reception, and
many people fell on both sides; but as soon as men fell in the
Danish army other men hastened from the country to fill their
places, and also all the vessels in the neighbourhood joined
them. The battle ended with the fall of Ottar and the greater
part of his people. The Danes took his body, carried it to the
land, laid it upon a mound of earth, and let the wild beasts and
ravens tear it to pieces. Thereafter they made a figure of a
crow out of wood, sent it to Sweden, and sent word with it that
their king, Ottar, was no better than it; and from this he was
called Ottar Vendelcrow.
So, if the 4 different sources tell us about the same Ottar, and the same occurance, it is very clear that this take lace in todays Jylland (Jutland), in the area today called Vendsyssel. And then it is very clear that the geats must be jutes.
Yngwe is offline  
Old July 10th, 2017, 07:08 PM   #14
Joined: May 2016
From: Vatican occupied America
Posts: 811
Blog Entries: 1

Originally Posted by Yngwe View Post
Nope, no reaction, the most important Anglp-Saxon work, and one of its oldest disputes ... and no response.


From Beowulf. Ongenthows offspring is Ottar, and he is apparently killed as his brother Onela after this becomes the king

From Ynglingatal

From Historia Norwegia

and from Ynglingasagan

So, if the 4 different sources tell us about the same Ottar, and the same occurance, it is very clear that this take lace in todays Jylland (Jutland), in the area today called Vendsyssel. And then it is very clear that the geats must be jutes.
You don't have four different sources you only have one which can't be trusted.

Beowulf does talk about a king Ottar (Ohthere). but does not agree with your claim. It agrees with Gregory of Tours. It has the Danes attacking the Jutes with the aid of Beowulf's king Hygelac who is king of the Island of Gotland where Beowulf is from. The Jutish king Finn also controlled part of Frisia which extended into Southwest of the Jutland peninsula and King Finn had his seat in Frisia. Beowulf is completely against your claim that Geats are the Jutes.

The Historia Norwegia is dated to the 12th or 13th century and is just quoting the Ynglingatal, so it too is just the Ynglingatal.

Snorri Sturluson wrote the Ynglinasaga and he used the Ynglingatal as his source, so it too is the Ynglingatal.

Now on to the Ynglingatal itself. It also says that the Geats are the from p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; } Västergötland. My ancestor Ingjaldr Ilrade when he built his infamous Hall of the Seven Kings invited his father-in-law to his feast and he was king p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; } Västergötland. Six of the Kings of what is today Sweden were dumb enough to come to Ingjaldr's feast and they and their closest followers were locked in that hall and burned to death.

p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }

Ynglingatal was written by þjóðólfr inn fróði (Thjodolf the learned. Also called Thjodolf of Hvinir) written 872-930 during the reign of Harald Fairhair. He confused Gamla Uppsala with a port in Norway - so no one is more geographically confused than him

Originally Posted by Yngwe
td p { margin-bottom: 0in; }p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }
But still, this is one of the clues, the battle involvoing Chlochilaichus according to Gregory, and Hygelac accodring to Beowulf. The same battle is by the way described by Snorre Sturlasson, naming the king Hugleik. However he moves it all from Frisia to Fyris outside Uppsala. Fris - Fyris in our langauge sounds pretty much the same. But Snorry placed as much s he ever could close to Uppsala, at that time there were political reasons for that!
You have not read Gregory of Tours' History of the Franks (Book three: chapter 3. He does not name anyone and just says the Danes raided Frisia
The name of the king was added by another layer writer.

Originally Posted by Yngwe
p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }
In fact, when you dig into it a bit deeper you find out that this Svea-Geat-things mostly are made up by 19'th century national-romantics... It is not at all based on any facts. The sources all way back to Jordanes infact tell us that the Geats are a sub-group to Swedes...So, to see if I can get some reaction, I claim that the geats in Beowulf weren't götar from todays Sweden, but Jutar/Jutes from todays Denmark.

You have not read Jordanes either! Scandia to Jordanes was an island and he lists the peoples inhabiting it. Scandia includes Finland and Denmark, but does not include Jutland. Denmark was limited to the Islands to the West of Jutland. He also lists three separate p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }Götars: The Gautigoths (Visigoths); the Ostrogoths and the Vagoths from Gotland. He in no way claims that the Geats are a subgroup of the Swedes. Jordanes wrote in the 6th century the time in which Beowulf is set. The Gutones are also a separate people in the much earlier writings of Ptolemy and Strapo.

Ottar Vendilkraka's (Vendel Crow) name is more likely from Vendel near Gamla Uppsala. Thjodolf almost certainly just invented his Jutish tale as he thought that Jutland and Denmark were the same country as they were in his time.

Sorry for the tardy replay - the fourth of July and my monitor burned out and I had to wait for a replacement. I was also waiting for someone else to reply as I did not want to be the one to tear apart these claims.

Disciple of Sophia is offline  
Old July 12th, 2017, 02:59 AM   #15
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Gränna, Sweden
Posts: 18

Thanks for your reply DoS. And no need to be sorry for late answer or even for trying to tear it all apart. The latter I expected, and will simply try to do the same with tour answers.

First of all, Historia Norwegia, Ynglingatal and Ynglingasagan is not the same source even if they tell the same story. I can agree that Ynglingatal and Ynglingasagan maybe should be considered as the same source, but as Snorre separates his own words from Ynglingatal I listed it as two different sources. However, we can then agree on three different sources, as Historia Norwegia tells the story in a completely different way, writen by another writer and with some differences. It is note a qoute of Ynglingatal as you claim, it is a version.

But none of these sources are originals, and none can be completly trusted.

But then we really have to sort some things out as you only confirm the trouble in using translations, all ending up with interpeting from the term "geat" crating just the confusion this thread was all about.

So, the geatish king of Västergötland you mention is of course a göte in todays term, but this doesn't mean that every geat is a göte. Please also note that this geatish king Allgaute is one of the swedish kings invited by Ingjald. Apparently, he is geat and swedish in the same time.

And, then to Jordanes. I dont know your source, but I think you got it all wrong. It is note stated by Jordanes that Finland is included in Scandia, and there really are no danish Islands at all west of Jutland. And the goth-nations mentioned are not clearly identified as any of those you claim. In fact, Visigoths and Ostrogoths are not at all located in todays Sweden, they are in fact something completely else, wich Jordanes describes very well.0

And then, placing Ottar Vendelkråka in Vendel, Uppland, Sweden. That is not true to any historic source, it is a wild idea from nationalist historians from late 19'th, erly 20'th century. Vendelcrow clearly comes from being killed in Vendel, Jutland, Denmark

It would be very interesting to see your sources DoS, because what you describe is some mix of nationalist-history that is not up to date anymore, but unfortunatly still is out ther on the internet and in old books.
Yngwe is offline  
Old July 13th, 2017, 04:20 AM   #16
Joined: Jan 2014
From: Westmorland
Posts: 1,914

What is the linguistic case for reading Geat as Jute?
Peter Graham is offline  
Old July 13th, 2017, 04:44 AM   #17

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,590
Blog Entries: 19

The Jutish Hypothesis had already suggested in late 19th century, but as for I know in beowulf the Geats and the Jutes are two separated entities.

To explain this, it requires a certain mind elasticity.
AlpinLuke is online now  
Old July 13th, 2017, 08:11 AM   #18
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Gränna, Sweden
Posts: 18

Peter Graham and AlpinLuke!

Yes, the jutish hypothesis is already old itself, and has actually never been proven to be wrong. However, it was never widely accepted. Why is that?

Main reason is surely that it didn't fit the main view in swedish history at the time, which were base on Svear (Swedes) concuering Götar (Geats). However, in the earlie 80's amateurs from Götaland started o question this history and now one scientist generation later it is all rewritten and no modern scholars claim that this conquest of the geats ever took place. In fact the earliest clear document , Adam of Bremens Gesta, 1:28, tells us that Götar are Swedes, they are one of their strongest tribes. This fact was earlier, and still by some, neglected. The consquenses of this is that Swedes not only occupied the area around lake Mälaren, but also areas further south, including the geatish lands Västergötland and Östergötland. In fact, it can be proven that the swedish-geatish conflict in Sweden is all mad up, there re no written sources about it (except for Beowulf, which we now question) and no archeology at all to support it. In fact, we can rather easy see it is all made up by so called historians.

Then to the lingustical problem. In this matter it has by some been treated as a rule that geat must come from gaut, which has developed into göt. It is true this can be shown lingustic, but that doesnt make it a rule that proves anything. We know there are exceptions as Bede actually write geat meaning jute, a fact well known since long but also neglected. Well, it doesnt matter. beacuse Historia Nowegia writes following about Sölve

"Hic genuit Eustein, quem Gautones in domo quadam obtrusum cum suis vivum incenderunt. Hujus filius Ynguar"
and from other sources such as Ynglingatal we learn that this Gautones means jutish.

This would not surpric any linguist today, it is well known fact that scandinavian dialects mix u - y - ö up in different way, and in fact the modern pronounciation of jutar and götar in some areas is very similar.

This means, there are now lingustic problem at all to read geats as jutes.

If you agree so far, please give me your thoughts of what the 4 qoutes about Ottar tell us!
Yngwe is offline  
Old July 21st, 2017, 09:32 AM   #19
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,151

Early Swedish kings used the title of King of the Swedes.

(1219) [1: Band 1; p.206]
< John I Sverkersson (+1222), King of Sweden 1216 >
Johannes dei gracia rex Sweuorum
May 1279) [1: Bandet 1; p.546]
Magnus Dei gracia Rex sweorum

Sweden and Finland. Titles of European hereditary rulers

from 1279 to 1319 the title was changed to King of the Swedes and the Goths:

(June 1279) [1: Bandet 1; p.549]
< Magnus "Ladulås" (+1290), King of Sweden 1275 >
Magnus dei gracia sweuorum gotorumque rex

From 1369-1973 the title was King of Sweden (or the Swedes) and the Goths with various additional titles that came and went.

Feb 1364) [1: Bandet 8, p.446]
< Albert (+1412), King of Sweden [1363-1389]; Duke of Mecklenburg >
nos Albertus Dei gracia Sweorum Gothorumque rex
(Mar 1962) [24: 1962:90]
< Gustav VI Adolphus (+1973), King of Sweden 1950 >
Vi Gustaf Adolf, med Guds nåde, Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung
Sweden and Finland. Titles of European hereditary rulers

The explanation given for the title of King of the Goths is that:

[ca.1279] the Goths
In 1275 King Woldemar I was deposed by his brother Magnus "Ladulås". In 1277 Woldemar, with Danish support, forced King Magnus to grant him extensive lands in Gothland (Götaland). In 1278 Woldemar was forced to give back the lands granted to him.
Sweden and Finland. Titles of European hereditary rulers

1279 was 738 years ago, half of the 1476 years between 541, when the Geats were probably flourishing, and 2017. And in 1279 the residents of Gothland were considered to be "Goths" because they resided in a region called Gothland or Gotaland. And when Gothland got its name at some earlier period it was occupied by people called Goths or by some similar name such as Gauts or Geats or Gotes or something.

As to where Beowulf's Geats lived.

If the Danes lived on the Danish Islands at the time as Beowulf claims, and if the Geats sailed to reach the Danish lands, there are only a few directions they could have sailed from.

1) The Geats could have sailed from the south, from Schleswig or the shores of the Baltic.

2) The Geats could have sailed from the east, from Skane or Gotaland in Sweden or the island of Gotland.

3) The Geats could have sailed from the north, from the Oslo region of Norway.

4) The Geats could have sailed from the northwest, from southern Norway.

5) The Geats could have sailed from the west, from nearby Jutland or distant Britain.

6) The Geats could have sailed from the south, from Schleswig or the shores of the North Sea.

And if in the time of Beowulf the Danes still lived in Skane in Sweden, the places the Geats could have sailed from would be shifted to the east.

Last edited by MAGolding; July 21st, 2017 at 09:53 AM.
MAGolding is offline  
Old July 23rd, 2017, 06:33 AM   #20
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Gränna, Sweden
Posts: 18

Well the royal titles are one thing. In fact already 1161 King Karl Sverkersson used Rex sveorum et gothorum. Thats a centurt later than the polish king claimes to be the king of goths as well... It might be so that gothorum in the swedish case relates to the island of Gotland. That woul explain why king Valdemar of Denmark takes this title when he conquers Gotland. As you can see there is a mess of goths-geats-gauts and such in southern Scandinavia at the time, and already early so called historians as Snorre and Saxo makes a mess of it. So, there is is no way to come to a conclusion what the word means in each case without further analys.

However, we can from sources dating back to viking-rea show that also southern part of todays Sweden are inhabited by svear, some of the belonging to a sub-group called götar.

Whit this in mind we can read the part of Beowulf I earlier cited without any conflict. If Swedes are present on the west coast of todays Sweden, they can sail over wide waters to get to the geats. The göta hypothesis on the other hand is in conflict with the fact that there are no wide waters between the Göta-region and central Sweden.

With two other sources stating the event took place on Jutland, there is no reason not to assume that the Geats in Beowulf actually are Jutes. The lingusitic argument against it is proved not to be valid!
Yngwe is offline  

  Historum > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.