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Old July 24th, 2017, 02:39 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Yngwe View Post

However, we can from sources dating back to viking-rea show that also southern part of todays Sweden are inhabited by svear, some of the belonging to a sub-group called götar...Whit this in mind we can read the part of Beowulf I earlier cited without any conflict. If Swedes are present on the west coast of todays Sweden, they can sail over wide waters to get to the geats. The göta hypothesis on the other hand is in conflict with the fact that there are no wide waters between the Göta-region and central Sweden.
These are the huge mistakes you're making. Sweden was limited to Svealand and the Goths were a separate people to the Swedes. Ancient writers long before the Viking Age say they were not the same peoples and they were actual geographers and historians


Click the image to open in full size.

There were broad seas between the island of Gotland and Svealand and Beowulf is quite clear that the Island of Gotland is where Beowulf was from and where king Hygelac was king.

With two other sources stating the event took place on Jutland, there is no reason not to assume that the Geats in Beowulf actually are Jutes. The lingusitic argument against it is proved not to be valid!
You still have only one source and the Geats in Beowulf are the people of Gotland.

TY for pointing out "West". I meant that Denmark was entirely limited to Southern Sweden and the Islands to the east of Jutland. Jutland and Denmark were no more identical countries than modern Norway and Sweden. Jutland itself looks like an Ice cream cone, the Jutes inhabited the northern part and the Angles the southern part of it in the 6th century when Beowulf takes place.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 02:48 AM   #22
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What Jordanes actually said.
Note: I've separated it into verses and in the original they're all run together, and the sentences are not capitalized -my libre office does it automatically darn it.

Iordanis, Getica III: 19-24 [written in 551 A.D.]


III:19 in Scandza vero insula, unde nobis sermo est, licet multae et diversae maneant nationes, septem tamen eorum nomina meminiy Ptolemaeus. apium ibi turba mellifica ob nimium frigore nusquam repperritur. In cuius partte arctoa gens Adogit consistit, itemque brumali tempore eodem dierum noctiumque numero luce clara nescire.

III:20 Ita alternato merore cum gaudio benificio aliis damnoque impar est. et hoc quare quia prolixioribus diebus solem ad orientem per axis marginem vident redeuntem, brevioribus vero non sic conspicitur apud illos, sed aliter quia austrinis signis percurrit, et quod nobis videtur sol ab imo surgere, illos per terrae marginem dicitur circuire.

III:21 Aliae vero ibi sunt gentes Screrfennae, que fruemtorum non queritant victum, sed carnibus ferarum atque ovis avium vivunt;ubi tanta paludibus
fetura ponitur, ut et augmentum prestent generi et satietatem ad cupiam genti. Alia vero gens ibi moratur Suehans, quae velud Thyringi equis utuntur eximiis. Hi quoque sunt, qui in usibus Romanorum sappherinas pelles commercio interveniente per alias innumeras gentes transmittunt, famosi pellium decoranigridine. hi cum inopes vivunt ditissime vestiuntur.

III:22 Sequitur deinde diversarum tuba nationum, Theustes, Vagoth, Bergio, Hallin, Liothida, quorum omnium sedes sub uno plani ac fertilis et proterea inibi aliarum gentium incursionibus infestantur. Post hos Ahelmil, Finnaithae, Fervir, Gauthigoth, acre hominum genus et et at bella prumtissimum. Dehinc Mixi, Evagre, Otingis. Hi omnes excicis rupibus
quasi castellis inhabitant ritu beluino.

III:23 Sunt et his exteriores Ostrogothae, Raumarici, Aeragnaricii, Finni mitissimi, Scandzae cultoribus mitiores; nec non et pares eorum Vinoviloth; Suetidi, cogniti in hac gente reliquis corpore eminentiores: quamvis et Dani, ex ipsrum stirpe progressi, Herulos propriis sedibus expulerunt, qui inter omnes.

III:24 Scandiae nationes nomen sibi ob nimia proceritate affectant praecipuum sunt quamquam et horum positura Grannii, Augandzi, Eunixi, Taetel, Rugi, Arochi, Ranii.
Quibus non ante multos annos Roduulf rex fuit, qui contempto proprio regno Theodorici Gothorum regis gremio convolavit et, ut desiderabat, invenit. Hae itaque gentes, Germanis corpore et animo grandiores, pugnabant beluina saevitia.
In English

The Gothic History of Jordanes, translator Charles Christopher Mierow, Ph.D. and publish by Princeton University Press 1925.


Jordanes: Origin and History of the Goths


III:19 Now in the island of Scandza, whereof I speak, there dwell many and diverse nations, though Ptolemaeus mentions the names of only seven of them. There the honeymaking swarms of bees are nowhere to be found on account of the exceedingly great cold. In the northern part of the island the race of the Adogit live, who are said to have continual light in midsummer for fourthy days and nights, and who likewise have no clear light in winter season for the same number of days and nights.

III:20 By reason of this alternation of sorrow and joy they are like no other race in their sufferings and blessings. And why? Because during the longer days they see the sun returning to the east along the rim of the horizon, but on the shorter days it is not thus seen. The sun shows itself differently because passing it is passing through the southern signs, and whereas to us the sun is seen to rise from below, it is said to go around them along the edge of the earth.

III:21 There also are other peoples. There are the Screrefennae, who do not seek grain for food but live on the flesh of wild beasts and birds' eggs; for there are such multitudes of young game in the swamps as to provide for the natural increase of their kind and to afford satisfaction to the needs of the people. But still another race dwells there, the Suehans [Swedes], who, like the Thuringians [Fiesians], have splendid horses. Here also are those who send through innumerable other tribes the sapphire colored skins [silver fox pelts actually black in color] to trade for Roman use. They are a people famed for the dark beauty of their furs and, though living in poverty, are most richly clothed.

III:22 Then comes a throng of various nations, Theustes, Vagoth, Bergio, Hallin, Liothida. All their habitations are in one level and fertile region. Wherefore they are disturbed there by the attacks of other tribes. Behind these are the Ahelmil, Finnaithae, Fervir and Gautigoth, a race of men quick to fight. Then come the Mixi, Evagre, and Otingis. All these live like wild animals in rocks hewn out like castles.

III:23 And there are beyond these the Ostrogths, Raumarici, Aeragnaricii and the most gentle Finn, milder than all the inhabitants of Scandza. Like them are the Vinovilith also. The Suetidi [Swedes] are of this stock and excell the rest in stature. However, the Dani [Danes] drove from their homes the Heruli, who lay claim to preeminence among al the nations of Scandza for their tallness.

III:24 Furthermore there are in the same neighborhood the Grannii, Augandzi, Eunixi, Taeli, Rugi, Arochi and Ranii, over whom Roduulf was king not many years ago. But he despised his own kingdom and fled to the embrace of Theodoric, king of the Goths, finding there what he desired. All these nations surpassed the Germans in size and spirit, and fought with the cruelty of wild beasts.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #23
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You make a beginnrs misstake presenting todays dividing of Sweden into Sveaand ad Götaland and Norrland. It is not an historic map, and as exampel, Värmland moved from Götaland to Svealand as late as 1815.

And regarding Jordanes, the Mierow translation makes it ll very difficult for you. If you know latin, I suggest you read it and see how sloppy Mierow translates term like Gen, Natio and Stirpe, he has no standard but changes the translations from time to time. If you dont know latin, I suggest you just search for this terms and replace Mierows translations with the original terms. You will hen find that a consistent use of the terms actually allows a reading telling us the among the people (gen ) there are tribes (natio) with name reminding of goths.

I don't want to be rude, Swedish history is not a big ting in the world an the facts you are able to fin online in english are often old and lacks a lot. But non the less, we got to have updated history as a base if this discussion is going to lead us any further!
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Old July 28th, 2017, 08:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Disciple of Sophia View Post
These are the huge mistakes you're making. Sweden was limited to Svealand and the Goths were a separate people to the Swedes. Ancient writers long before the Viking Age say they were not the same peoples and they were actual geographers and historians
Whether your statement is correct or not it seams like bad grammar or at least funny sounding to me.

I believe it is correct to say "a separate people from the Swedes", not "a separate people to the Swedes". At least it really annoys me to read "different to" instead of "different from".
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Old August 26th, 2017, 12:36 AM   #25

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Geats/Goths and Vandals, the original inhabitants of what would become Poland ;P
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:29 AM   #26

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Originally Posted by Yngwe View Post
Allthough I agree on Gregory lacking the knowledge of geography to our standards, I am not so sure we should just dismiss him totally. We must also consider the reason to write , and we must ralize that spelling standards werent invented, causing a great deal of confusions and missunderstandings.

But, as said, we can leave Gregory, his words are not hte ones we are looking for.
Yngwe thanks for this interesting topic! (for me a reason to become member of historum).

What is part of the puzzle is that in the sixth century AD Friesland was a "Danish plant". It was some sort of outlier of the Scandinavian world. Gudme in Danmark was at that time an important center of power.

The power configuration at that time was according to JAW Nicolay (2006):
Click the image to open in full size.

This is partly based on the Scandic bracteate that played an important part in the confirmation of the power network (JAW Nicolay 2006):
Click the image to open in full size.

How come?

In the aftermath of the Roman Empire the Frisian coastal area had a severe population decline. Archeologist are still arguing how fare this was the case. The communis opinion of the last few years is that the more we go to the west in the Frisian coastal area (Dutch and German) the more population decline.
The part of Friesland which was most affected was (later on) called Westergo
Some stated about Westergo in the fourth century: 'you could only hear the seagulls cry.'

But in the fifth and sixth century this changed, there was an influx of two upstreams:
a. in the first halve fifth century (or earlier) of the Saxons (Chauci) and Angles;
b. in the second halve of the fifth century the Southern Scandinavians.

Again Nicolay (2006):
Click the image to open in full size.

This migrations, especially the last one, pulled Friesland in the Scandic/Germanic world. And especially the previously abandoned Westergo developed as a major stronghold of the Southern Scandinavian/ Danish world. The most Scandic related findings are to be found in this area. The Frisians began in this period for the first time to use runes etc.

See this work of Nicolay (in English) with the striking title: Odin in Friesland!


This break between the Frisii of Roman period and the Frisians afterwards is still not 100% in the collective Dutch mind. In the first halve of the twentieth century when Prof. Boeles did a suggestion, based on pottery, of this influxes the patriotic Frisians could keelhaul him, because this ment some sort of discontinuity in the Frisian history (the influence of Romantic thought as you mentioned about the Swedes). But nowadays it's more and more accepted (but not overall).

Recently I have tested my (and my parents) autosomal DNA, and David of Eurogenes plots me and my father in the corner of the early Anglo-Saxons and the modern Danes (the blue crosses):

Click the image to open in full size.

My fathers' side is mostly from the North Sea coast districts (my mother is slightly on distance, her ancestors are more from inland North Dutch). Anyhow it shows for me the deep impact of the Nordic influx on the North Dutch.

The relevance for the discussion here is that the Frisians in the fifth, sixth and seventh century AD are to bee seen in 'Southern Scandinavian' context. Until now they are in this respect (the very early middle ages) mostly seen in the Frisian context as such, not as a Danish/Southern Scandinavian derivate (what certainly was the case).

What could be the consequence of that:

Chlochilaichus, as mentioned by the Frankish historian Gregory of Tours, could indeed be the Danish king, he had a major stronghold in Friesland. From the Frisian territory Northern France is within reach. The Frisian-Frankish controversy was for centuries a major struggle. In the end the Franks were victorious. As a result of that the Frisians were pulled into a Western-European context in stead of a Nordic one.

Hygelac, as shown by A.S Christensen, this personage in Beowulf is not to be seen as Chlochilaichus. When Hygelac is to be seen as king, or chieftain, of the Geats he was probably someone in the power networks as shown by Nicolay. When he, as part of the Southern Scandinavian power network, belonged to the Frisian allies, he could shown bravery to fight the 'enemy' : the Franks in their Rhineland territory. But that's my interpretation.

Finn Folcwalding, the first Frisian king, is most likely a Frisian chieftain also of the Southern Scandinavian entourage, as mentioned in Beowulf 'he must honor the Danes' (the Danish king!?).

But Beowulf is IMO not to be seen as the work of a nowadays historian. It's poetic. It aims not to be historically precise but is more a epic tale, a inspiring tale of heros from the past. De n'importe quoi if it's sixth or seventh or eight century.

In the end it stays pretty confusing the "North Sea people amalgam" was in the beginning of the middle ages such a "plate of spaghetti" that it's not easy to pinpoint exactly....

Last edited by Finn Folcwalding; December 27th, 2017 at 05:19 AM.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:49 AM   #27
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To my ancestors ancestors of Swedes were Varangians (Old Norse: Væringjar). The old name of Baltic Sea is Varangian Sea. Today, we call all people Sweden Swedes.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:55 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ivar View Post
Geats/Goths and Vandals, the original inhabitants of what would become Poland ;P
Traditional Lithuanian term for their neighbours Belarusians (Belarusian term is about 200 years of age) is Gudai in plural. Gudas in singular.

Gudas/Gudai is derived from Goth. Balts mistook new comers calling them Gudai/Gudas. Goths must have migrated south to Ukraine passing nearby Balts.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 11:12 AM   #29
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Icelandic and Old English sources distinguish the Geats from the Goths. The Goths were also an East Germanic people similar to the Burgundians, not Norse speakers like the Geats were. Multiple different Old English sources also distinguish the Geats from the Jutes. So if the Geats were either Jutes or Goths, it must have been a long long long time ago, because they were certainly treated by other Germanic peoples as being distinct tribes. As for whether the Geats may have been the same people as the Gutes (implying Gutes were of Geatish descent), that seems the most plausible since the Gutes were a stone's throw away on an island close to where to Geats lived.
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