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Old August 3rd, 2017, 11:45 AM   #1
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Porphyrogenitus' nations in Asia and the Caucasus


I'm trying to translate portions of De Ceremoniis of Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus.

Do we have anyone here who's kind of good with Medieval Greek?

Quote:
εις τον αρχοντα Αλβανιας· εις τον αρχοντα των Κρεβαταδων, ηγουν τον λεγομενον Κρεβαταν· εις τον αρχοντα Κηδωνιας· εις τους αρχοντας Τζαναριας· εις τον αρχοντα του Σαρβαν, οιτινες κεινται μεσον Αλανιας και Τζαναριας· εις τους αρχοντας Αζιας, εν ω εισιν αι Κασπειαι πύλαι· εις τον αρχοντα Χρύσα· εις τον αρχοντα Βρεζαν· εις τον αρχοντα Μωκαν; ιστεον, οτι απο Μωκαν εστιν η Μαιωτης λιμην; επιγραφη εις παντας τους προειρημενους· κελευσις εκ των φιλοχριστων δεσποτων προς ο δεινα τον αρχοντα τησδε
So far:

"To the ruler of Albania; to the ruler of the Krebatads, who are called Krebatans; to the ruler of Kydonia; to the ruler of the Sarbans, who are between Alania and Tzanaria; to the rulers of Asia, next to the Caspian Gates; to the ruler of (Chris?); to the ruler of the Brezans; to the ruler of the Mocans, that is the Mocans who are next to the Maeotis harber; the inscription should go as the following: order from the Despot, Son of Christ, to all these rulers"

Any ideas on what on earth the Chris could be? That location is mysteriously omitted from the book's (old) Latin translations.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:58 PM   #2

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The Byzantina Australiensia translation translates that section as:

"To the archon of [Caucasian] Albania, to the archon of the Krebatadoi that is, what is called Krebatan (i.e. possibly Darband); to the archon of Kedonia (i.e. Dudaniyya, part of S. Daghestan); to the archon of Tzanaria (i.e. Sanariyya, or Tsanars); to the archon of Sarban (i.e. Sharwan), to the archons of Azia (i.e. possibly Sarir in Daghestan) who are between Alania and Tzanaria (i.e. Sanariyya / Carnak), where the Caspian gates are; to the archons of Chrysa (i.e. Khursan / Khirsan); to the archon of Brezan (i.e. Barzand); to the archon of Mokan (i.e. Mukan) - note that Lake Maiotis (i.e. the sea of Azov) starts from Mokan; in writing to all the aforementioned: "Greetings from the Christ-loving rulers to so-and-so, the archon of this place." "

Khursan was a minor Caucasian principality, of which not much is apparently known.

Last edited by JeanDukeofAlecon; August 3rd, 2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 01:26 PM   #3
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Sharwan? But, does it correspond its geographical location between Alania and Tzanaria?

Doesn't the aforementioned refer to the Sarbans, rather than the Asian rulers?

Namely, I am considering whether it could refer to the Ancient Serbs who are located just about in that region by Claudius Ptolemy.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 01:21 PM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceho View Post
Sharwan? But, does it correspond its geographical location between Alania and Tzanaria?

Doesn't the aforementioned refer to the Sarbans, rather than the Asian rulers?

Namely, I am considering whether it could refer to the Ancient Serbs who are located just about in that region by Claudius Ptolemy.
I think that "οιτινες κεινται μεσον Αλανιας και Τζαναριας·" refers to the archon of "Sarban"(Sarvan) and surely to some refered previously in the sentence since "oitines" is plural (who are) while he refers to one archon of Sarban. Not clear.

Porphyrogennetos, as expected hellenized the names, so it makes it difficult to understand how the ethnic/region name real sounded. For example he writes Krevata as krevation (bed in greek), Chrysa and chrysos (chrysa in plural) which is gold in greek, and Kedonia as kydonia (quinces in greek, and similarly to Cretan Kydonia city) etc...

In the same text he refers to Serbs:
" εις τον αρχοντα Χρωβατιας· εις τον αρχοντα Σερβλων· εις τον αρχοντα των Ζαχλούμων· εις τον αρχοντα του Καναλη· εις τον αρχοντα των Τραβούνων· εις τον αρχοντα ∆ιοκλειας· εις τον αρχοντα Μωραβιας."
'To the lord of Hrovatia, to the lord of Servloi, to the lord of Zaclouma, to the lord of Kanale, to the lord of Travounians, to the lord of Diocleia, to the lord of Moravia..."


Its too risky to connect the names of caucasian Krevata and Sarban with Hrovatia and Servlia though...but its interesting.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 06:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psellos View Post
I think that "οιτινες κεινται μεσον Αλανιας και Τζαναριας·" refers to the archon of "Sarban"(Sarvan) and surely to some refered previously in the sentence since "oitines" is plural (who are) while he refers to one archon of Sarban. Not clear.
Could it, rather, not refer to the Sarbans themselves (who are)?
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Old August 7th, 2017, 10:18 AM   #6

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceho View Post
Sharwan? But, does it correspond its geographical location between Alania and Tzanaria?

Doesn't the aforementioned refer to the Sarbans, rather than the Asian rulers?

Namely, I am considering whether it could refer to the Ancient Serbs who are located just about in that region by Claudius Ptolemy.
I am most certainly hoping this is a joke.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 10:27 PM   #7
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I am most certainly hoping this is a joke.
Of course it's not. It is a legitimate theory in historiography.
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Old August 13th, 2017, 05:11 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceho View Post
Of course it's not. It is a legitimate theory in historiography.
Not from any legitimate scholar I've ever heard of. This is not the forum for nationalist propaganda taught by your government.
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Old August 13th, 2017, 05:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius Aetius View Post
Not from any legitimate scholar I've ever heard of. This is not the forum for nationalist propaganda taught by your government.
What?

What on Earth are you talking about? Nationalist propaganda? Who even mentioned any government at all in the first place? And what made you even assume something like that at all?

The Scytho-Sarmatian theory on the origin of Serbs (as well as Croats) is one of the existing schools of thought that consider those peoples' potential pre-Slavic etiological roots.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 02:06 AM   #10
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I am most certainly hoping this is a joke.
I see that you are from Serbia yourself. Are you not aware of that theory?
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