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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old December 7th, 2017, 08:07 AM   #11

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and the Slavs also adopted the name Greek to refer to the Byzantines as early as the 6th century, most likely from Latin.
It's worth noting that, while the term was indeed adopted from Latin, or through another language which adopted it from Latin, Slavic use of the term "Greeks" to refer to the Greek-speakers of the Balkans and Asia Minor may be significantly older than the widespread adoption of Roman identity among those people, and thus probably doesn't have any specific ideological or cultural charge behind it, unlike the Carolingian use.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 08:26 AM   #12

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It's worth noting that, while the term was indeed adopted from Latin, or through another language which adopted it from Latin, Slavic use of the term "Greeks" to refer to the Greek-speakers of the Balkans and Asia Minor may be significantly older than the widespread adoption of Roman identity among those people, and thus probably doesn't have any specific ideological or cultural charge behind it, unlike the Carolingian use.
Oh... quite true. The term "Greek (Grk)" was used to describe a Byzantine Roman. There was another term to describe ancient, pagan Greeks: term "Hellene (Jelin)". The Slavs used the term Greek to describe Byzantium, but they didn't do it because of politics or ideology like the West.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 10:24 AM   #13
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The date when byzantines left Italian peninsula for good was 1071 when Normans captured Bari and this was after Great Schism 1054.

As far as i know resentment towards Irene and her iconophilia was great, Franks didnt quite accepted the return of icons veneration.

I presume 6th century is too early. Dont know how Vlastimirovic dynasty referred to byzantines centuries later but for Bulgars it was Ромеи/Рωμαίοι/Romans.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #14

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It's a term applied later to them, by the early modern period, but they considered themselves Romans, and were Romans. They were a direct continuation of the state Augustus founded, Diolectian progressed, and essentially were a Greek version of Augustus and Dioletctian's Empire.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 11:06 AM   #15

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The date when byzantines left Italian peninsula for good was 1071 when Normans captured Bari and this was after Great Schism 1054.

As far as i know resentment towards Irene and her iconophilia was great, Franks didnt quite accepted the return of icons veneration.

I presume 6th century is too early. Dont know how Vlastimirovic dynasty referred to byzantines centuries later but for Bulgars it was Ромеи/Рωμαίοι/Romans.
Well, yes, I was unclear. I meant the fall of the Exarchate of Ravenna. But still, doesn't change the rest. Anyways, Charlemagne couldn't call the Byzantine Emperor Roman Emperor since that would invalidate his own title. It is no surprise that from his time, e start seeing the Byzantines called Greeks. Plus, speaking of the Bulgarians, while I don't really know about Old Bulgars, but Ivan Asen II did call himself "цар Блгаром и Грком" "emperor of Bulgarians and Greeks".
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Old December 7th, 2017, 11:38 AM   #16

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Also to add to this, we also see that the West used the term Greek before the Great Schism from the reports of Lituprand of Cremona from Constantinople in which he constantly calls the Byzantines Greeks, he even mentions that the Pope called Nicephoros II the Emperor of the Greeks, while hailing Otto I as "august Emperor of Romans".
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Old December 7th, 2017, 01:12 PM   #17

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and the Slavs also adopted the name Greek to refer to the Byzantines as early as the 6th century, most likely from Latin.
Do we have any old Slavonic before the 9th century, though?

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The date when byzantines left Italian peninsula for good was 1071 when Normans captured Bari and this was after Great Schism 1054.
Not totally the case, since Byzantine troops invaded Italy under Manuel I Komnenos during a short and unsuccessful campaign, and Byzantine interests and resources were active in Ancona in the 1150s against Barbarossa.

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Also to add to this, we also see that the West used the term Greek before the Great Schism from the reports of Lituprand of Cremona from Constantinople in which he constantly calls the Byzantines Greeks, he even mentions that the Pope called Nicephoros II the Emperor of the Greeks, while hailing Otto I as "august Emperor of Romans".
Sure, but if the Latins get a say, then so do those writing in Arabic, who preferred to refer to the inhabitants of the empire as "Rum".
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Old December 7th, 2017, 01:45 PM   #18

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Do we have any old Slavonic before the 9th century, though?



Not totally the case, since Byzantine troops invaded Italy under Manuel I Komnenos during a short and unsuccessful campaign, and Byzantine interests and resources were active in Ancona in the 1150s against Barbarossa.



Sure, but if the Latins get a say, then so do those writing in Arabic, who preferred to refer to the inhabitants of the empire as "Rum".
Yes, they call the Romans in the East "Rum" ... for Italians this is curious: rum is an alcoholic drink ...
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Old December 7th, 2017, 09:48 PM   #19

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Do we have any old Slavonic before the 9th century, though?
Written, no. Spoken, yes. Btw. I can provide a source for my claim. (Identities and Allegiances in the Eastern Mediterranean After 1204, p. 123; citing: Ljubomir Maksimović, Značenje reči Grk i Jelin u srpskim srednjevekovnim izvorima, ZRVI 38, p. 216)

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Sure, but if the Latins get a say, then so do those writing in Arabic, who preferred to refer to the inhabitants of the empire as "Rum".
True, but I was specifically responding to a claim that the Latins only started using Greek after the Great Schism, and that the Slavs called Byzantines Greeks, something evident from documents from medieval Serbia and Bulgaria.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 11:14 PM   #20
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@Maki Ivan Asen II reigned after the fall of the City in 1204. Crusader emperors who claimed of coarse direct heritage from the fallen Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire ruled from Constantinople their Imperiim Romanae. For most of historumites, as you can see from the link i posted in my initial post, 1204 is the year of the end of ERE. Some accept the reign of Heracleus, allegedly when Romaioi abandoned roman titles/latin language and introduced greek as the empire's official language as the borderline between ERE & Byzantium. These are mostly occidental pov of coarse, from the perspective of its inhabitants it was roman till the end and even after that - Rum millet /yo-ho-ho and the bottle of rum/. One historumite from greek diaspora in Australia, sadly banned for a while, told me that he considers himself roman.Amazing, isnt it?

Regarding Charlemagne, he was crowned emperor by the pope in 800. Irene ruled as empress in the east at the time. Being a woman ergo unfit to be emperor, according to Franks and the Pope, the position was vacant, aside from purely religious differences between west and east. The relations between Popes and ERE Autokrators worsened gradually centuries before 1054.

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; December 7th, 2017 at 11:23 PM.
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