Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 21st, 2017, 06:02 AM   #31

Naima's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: Venice
Posts: 2,016

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
Yes lets. But lets also stop this this thing that Christians are an entity and Arabs/muslims are another single entity.

Arabs and Berbers do not equate - far from it in fact as they spent a lot of time killing each other.

Rather than saying 'arabs did this' and 'Christians did that' we should be saying things like 'the Fatimids did this' and 'the Banu Ganiya did that' and 'Aragon did the other'.

It makes no sense to talk of just 2 opposed sides
I correct my previous statement woth muslims in place of arabs.
Naima is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 22nd, 2017, 12:59 PM   #32
Archivist
 
Joined: May 2017
From: Virginia
Posts: 138

Couldn't you have said the same thing about the Islamic conquests of Sicily and Spain. I am sure the Visigoths and especially the Byzantines would have thought of their Islamic conquerors as barbarians to a certain degree. The Visigoths being Romanized at least somewhat (having built the first cities in Europe after the fall of the W.Roman Empire, great metal-workers, and having possibly the last great historian of antiquity in Isidore of Seville) and the Byzantine, of course, being THE Romans. Also, isn't Norman rule of Sicily often said to be a "Golden Age" with a melding of Norman, Islamic Arab, Italian, and Greek Orthodox elements.

P.S. I've always read that Paris had around 100,000 people in 1200. Only 30,000 seems way too small.
ThatGuy is offline  
Old December 24th, 2017, 12:46 AM   #33

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 21,569
Blog Entries: 19

The estimates about the populations of medieval cities are based on documented and rational calculations. The problem is that "documented". There has been who has even evaluated the surface considering the mean density of homes and the eventual habit to build towers [like in medieval Bologna which looked like Manhattan].

Regarding Paris in XIII century we can find estimates up to 200,000 inhabitants with a starting population [around 1,200 CE] between 25,000 and 50,000. The between of the growth of the urban population is proved by the construction of a wider system of walls to protect the city.

J.C. Russel and others have made nice estimates.

Now, within the walls of Philip Augustus there were 253 hectares. To say that Paris hosted 25,000 inhabitants means a density of about 100 inhabitants per hectare, which means 10,000 inhabitants per square kilometer. Manhattan is a bit above 22,000 inhabitants per square kilometers. Rio de Janerio = 80,000; Nairobi = 100,000; Mumbai = 114,000 ...

Those 25,000 inhabitants, considering the surface within the walls, are even an optimistic estimate. Anyway acceptable: medieval cities were crowded and not well organized.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old December 24th, 2017, 12:52 AM   #34

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 21,569
Blog Entries: 19

About the Normans in Sicily, it's interesting to remind that when they conquered Palermo, their leader acquired the title of "Malik" leaving to the Muslim their judges. It was Ruggero to bring bishops back to the territory [French bishops]. Pope Urban II, in fact, left the choice of the bishops to the Normans [it was the "Apostolical Legazia of Sicily", a political move by the Pope to gain the aid of the Normans to avoid that the Greek-Eastern Church enlarged its presence on the isle ... at the beginning the Normans aided the Greek Orthodox Church without problems]. Ruggero I of Sicily obtained the active aid of the Byzantine Church to develop its administration and control of the local territory. The Pope made Ruggero Papal Legate for Sicily [well ...].
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old December 26th, 2017, 08:15 AM   #35
Suspended until May 21st, 2018
 
Joined: Oct 2016
From: On a magic carpet
Posts: 692

Statements about deforestation and Muslims are a bit dubious I suspect. Although the notorious Banu Hilal tribes did arrive in North Africa in the 11th century and it is supposed that they caused damage to agriculture and increased pastoralism, they were Bedouin coming from Egypt, not Berbers from north Africa. Also, chronologically they arrived too late to have caused agricultural damage on Sicily that is claimed.

Also, North Africa does not lack forests. At least in Morocco, it is full of pine forests. Indeed those forests are well known as they cover much of the nation and one can easily see that when visiting. I will admit I've never been to Tunisia so can't comment but deforestation is hardly a "Muslim" phenomenon as it is found right across Europe beginning in the Neolithic period. Even Scottish islands like Shetland and Orkney are without trees today. Are you going to tell me that was caused by "Muslims" too?

Certainly there is no theological basis for cutting down trees, laws of Abu Bakr for instance specifically command his troops that no one should cut down a fruit-bearing tree.

The presence of the goat and the sheep is a possible cause of land degradation but I have seen no evidence apart from your post referring to this in Sicily. I visited Menfi in Sicily and Palermo just last year and I saw many farms.
SufiMystic is offline  
Old December 29th, 2017, 12:07 AM   #36

johnincornwall's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Cornwall
Posts: 6,402

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
Statements about deforestation and Muslims are a bit dubious I suspect. Although the notorious Banu Hilal tribes did arrive in North Africa in the 11th century and it is supposed that they caused damage to agriculture and increased pastoralism, they were Bedouin coming from Egypt, not Berbers from north Africa. Also, chronologically they arrived too late to have caused agricultural damage on Sicily that is claimed.

Also, North Africa does not lack forests. At least in Morocco, it is full of pine forests. Indeed those forests are well known as they cover much of the nation and one can easily see that when visiting. I will admit I've never been to Tunisia so can't comment but deforestation is hardly a "Muslim" phenomenon as it is found right across Europe beginning in the Neolithic period. Even Scottish islands like Shetland and Orkney are without trees today. Are you going to tell me that was caused by "Muslims" too?

Certainly there is no theological basis for cutting down trees, laws of Abu Bakr for instance specifically command his troops that no one should cut down a fruit-bearing tree.

The presence of the goat and the sheep is a possible cause of land degradation but I have seen no evidence apart from your post referring to this in Sicily. I visited Menfi in Sicily and Palermo just last year and I saw many farms.
I have not come across such things either
johnincornwall is offline  
Old December 29th, 2017, 06:19 AM   #37
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: USA
Posts: 1,630

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
In the 11th century, the advanced and enlightened Muslim societies of Sicily and al Andalus were conquered by barbarous and uncivilized barbarians from the north: the Normans and Castile.

Córdoba was famous as a centre of learning and education. Al Hakam II had a large library. Knowledge in the fields of "medicine, mathematics, astronomy, botany" exceeded the rest of Europe.

In a scene comparable to the fall of Rome, these invaders who were seen as barbarians ransacked the works of a more developed civilisation, throwing the regions they conquered into a new dark age. The Spanish Inquisition was barbaric. Centuries of progress were undone and the regions declined for centuries under tyrannical misrule.

By 1330, Palermo's population had declined to 51,000, compared to 350,000 In it's Arabic heyday. Meanwhile Cordoba had 450,000 to 1 million inhabitants in its Islamic golden age. It's decline was even more spectacular. After centuries of misrule, by the 18th century it was reduced to just 20,000 inhabitants.

The Norman/Castilian conquest of both places was a calamity and an act of historical vandalism that set civilisation back by centuries. Discuss!
Christian re-conquest of Muslim Iberia and places like Sicily was one of the events that set about epoch making changes in world history. For example, no re-conquest, no Columbus and no Vasco de Gama. And Iberia today would have looked like the backward medieval Islamic world today. One can get an idea by travelling across the straits to Morocco.

Last edited by kandal; December 29th, 2017 at 07:07 AM.
kandal is offline  
Old December 29th, 2017, 07:40 AM   #38

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 21,569
Blog Entries: 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
Statements about deforestation and Muslims are a bit dubious I suspect. Although the notorious Banu Hilal tribes did arrive in North Africa in the 11th century and it is supposed that they caused damage to agriculture and increased pastoralism, they were Bedouin coming from Egypt, not Berbers from north Africa. Also, chronologically they arrived too late to have caused agricultural damage on Sicily that is claimed.

Also, North Africa does not lack forests. At least in Morocco, it is full of pine forests. Indeed those forests are well known as they cover much of the nation and one can easily see that when visiting. I will admit I've never been to Tunisia so can't comment but deforestation is hardly a "Muslim" phenomenon as it is found right across Europe beginning in the Neolithic period. Even Scottish islands like Shetland and Orkney are without trees today. Are you going to tell me that was caused by "Muslims" too?

Certainly there is no theological basis for cutting down trees, laws of Abu Bakr for instance specifically command his troops that no one should cut down a fruit-bearing tree.

The presence of the goat and the sheep is a possible cause of land degradation but I have seen no evidence apart from your post referring to this in Sicily. I visited Menfi in Sicily and Palermo just last year and I saw many farms.
Deforestation? It was typically Roman. Romans reduced a lot the forests in Europe [they need soil to cultivate]. Only the age of the industrial revolution has seen a wider deforestation than the one which happened during the Roman age.

I have never heard [at least among Italian historians] an accusation of deforestation to Muslim dominant powers.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History

Tags
act, andalus, conquest, european, sicily, vandalism



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Peculiar patterns of european colonisation, conquest and settlement Fantasus European History 2 October 29th, 2017 01:51 PM
Historical conspiracies..Norman Conquest notgivenaway Medieval and Byzantine History 25 May 2nd, 2017 12:02 AM
A European Conquest of All of China: Was This Realistic? Futurist Speculative History 101 June 2nd, 2016 01:33 AM
Spanish conquest of the Americas and the European conquest of Africa CyrusTheGreat European History 3 August 14th, 2014 06:27 PM
U.S. History Essay..European Conquest wrestlermatt9 History Help 5 March 18th, 2011 06:14 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.